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Sam Thomas: Lessons from Failure and Building Community Success

November 11, 2024 • Biro • Season 2 • Episode 47

In this episode, Sam Thomas, entrepreneur and founder of County Business Clubs, opens up about his journey through business failures, building a thriving community, and the lessons learned along the way. Sam shares his passion for storytelling and how embracing challenges has shaped his success.

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Speaker 1: 0:01

so what I usually start is with a elevator pitch, um of you, so basically you telling me who you are and what is it that you do, yeah, and then we'll take it from there. I usually kind of like pick up things and start asking questions, curiosity stuff. Well, first off, thanks, thank you so much for for doing this again. As I mentioned, I'm so disorganized. That, and now that lucy, by the way, how do you know lucy?

Speaker 2: 0:30

I don't. I think she just reached out to me and oh really okay, right, right, I see, yeah.

Speaker 1: 0:35

So, like um, we paused the pr stuff over over summer and over this period, as I'm starting my own company and I feel so lost already because she was doing all of the reaching out reminders to people. Oh, by the way, here's the address, here's how you get there. Are you coming? All of this stuff? Yeah, sure, sure, sure. I'm a very disorganized person.

Speaker 2: 0:58

You and me both.

Speaker 1: 0:59

I'm with you so thank you for keeping up your end of the bargain and actually showing up.

Speaker 2: 1:05

All good, all good, it's a pleasure. So a bit about yourself, cool yeah. So I'm Sam Thomas. I've been in Brighton now since 2010 when I started my I guess, my entrepreneurial journey. I was in a hair salon, so I was part of the Tony and Guy group, and I was never a hairdresser, so I was part of the Tony and Guy group, okay.

Speaker 2: 1:28

And I was never a hairdresser, purely a business venture for me. Run that for three years, moved down in the 2012 and then closed it in the 2013. Didn't work out. It was, yeah, it failed. I lost a bit of money. I had to sell a property in Essex but although I wasn't cutting hair at the time, I was I guess I was.

Speaker 2: 1:49

I was out networking started to build my network and I've always been a people person. I get my energy from people. I love people and I built a really strong network. So, although I closed it in 2013, I knew that there was some opportunities here. I knew that there were some opportunities here. I then took over a company called Fernballs, which is five-a-side football, golf and pool.

Speaker 2: 2:09

So networking through sport, which brought two of my passions together really sport and business and I've still run that today. I've been growing that over the last sort of 12 years. We've got leagues all over the country, mainly in the southeast, but all over the country mainly in the southeast, but all over the country London, manchester. And then back in 2017, I took over a well-known publication based in in Sussex called Sussex Business Times publishing has changed a lot over the years, so my business partner there approached me with my network that I'd grown over the years and was like look, do you want to come on board? We can try and build something from off the back of the magazine um, and that's been my main focus for the last few years with a with a view to launch, which we did launch back in 2020 um county business clubs. Um, which is a Sussex based membership organization just to to help companies share stories um and on the back of that.

Speaker 2: 3:05

So we've got a business publication. I host a podcast now myself, which is probably, out of all the things I do, the thing I love the most, um, and I host a radio show and then we host events, but it's all based around sharing stories and the power of storytelling in business. Um, I guess that's a whistle stop tour of of where I am and what I'm doing a flash kind of like journey towards your um, into your um business acumen in a sense.

Speaker 1: 3:34

Um, that's very interesting. You started with, and was that your first business? The um the hair, yeah, it was.

Speaker 2: 3:44

So it was. I got into. So up as a youngster I was like many. I grew up in dagnam in essex, um, and as a as a youngster I was going to be a professional footballer like many youngsters at that stage and I was. I had a couple of trials and never quite made it and then was just a bit lost. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I had a couple of jobs in London admin stuff and just didn't really had no clear direction.

Speaker 2: 4:09

My family had been in barbering. I used to get my hair cut in Tony and Guy in Lakeside in Essex. I was always into fashion, loved that sort of area and that industry, and I ended up just chatting to the people who were cutting my hair and the managers of the salon. I ended up at 20. I was 24 at the time, 24, 25 and they they said I said look, I'm looking to get into hairdressing, what does it look like? And they then, from that I started. They offered me a job. They said obviously pay for an apprentice hairdresser at 25 was going to be really low. I still planned semi-professional football at the time, so I was earning a bit of money on that. And they was like look, come in and we can train you. I trained for about a year, 18 months, but I was front of house. So although I was training, I was front of house and, again, I love people. It worked out really, really well and but at that time a bit of a game changer for me.

Speaker 2: 5:08

I started, I was reading a lot of books, a lot of business books. I think I'd always had deep inside me a bit of an entrepreneurial spirit. I watched a lot of Only Fools and Horses. That was I wanted to be this time next year I'm going to be a millionaire. That was my thing. And I was like I started looking into different businesses, what I could do, what and where my passion was. And I looked at, I looked at doing some property. I looked at getting a coffee van um, there was a few different angles. I was looking at getting. And then the opportunity come up to take over my own salon here in Brighton and the business owners that own the lakeside salon was like, look um, because, because the the journey of trying to be a hairdresser, I realized we've all got our skill sets in life. Um, hairdressing wasn't one of mine.

Speaker 2: 5:57

I was like, look, I'm gonna leave. But as I was gonna leave and start my own business venture, they they said to me look, don't leave, we'll make you a manager, get more involved. There'd be some opportunities further down the line and it was exactly that. So I managed the salon, turned over about one and a half million a year. Um was one of the biggest Tony and guys and then. So I got to.

Speaker 2: 6:19

Just before I was 30 I got to the point and the opportunity come up to take over my salon here and it was an essential. It was a sister company of Tony and Guy's. It didn't quite have the strength in brand but it was an opportunity and I just jumped at it and it was tough. Two years I've commuted from Essex every day, seven days a week on a motorbike, which was a challenge in itself. But again, you learn so much from like. My first business was just yeah, I went in. I reflect on it now and I went in as a boss and not as a leader. Right, and I think I got the culture wrong and that's where you know that was mainly not a complete failure, but it was just a real challenge.

Speaker 1: 7:04

Real challenge did you get any sort of? You know, nowadays there's so many kind of like entrepreneurship program courses and so on. Did you get any of that when you get started, or was it strictly? Hey, we want you to run this, let me show you the ropes, but that's about it.

Speaker 2: 7:25

Yeah, exactly that. Yeah, it was literally like I'd managed to sell it. I remember going up and then having a meeting with tony muscolo himself, who you know what was worth 350 million, I think, when he passed away and he's an amazing entrepreneur, um, great guy. But he just bought into me as an individual. I think you know I was, um, I was one of the out of 400 sal. I was one of the out of 400 salons. I was one of the only franchisees that wasn't a hairdresser and there's obviously a reason for that.

Speaker 2: 7:51

There was challenges in that sense, but I did come at it from a business angle and it was a great learning curve. It was a great learning curve but it wasn't really. It wasn't necessarily. The support from as a franchisor was in that sense of how to run a business and it was pretty much learning on the job for me, to be honest, and I think the people I had involved with me who managed this lakeside salon, um, I don't think, looking back now again on reflection, weren't probably the best mentors how they run their business and stuff. So I don't think I learned that many core skills. It, like I said, it was so much I learned and one of the biggest things was when it failed and I had to walk away and lost the money. You learn so much from your failures, right?

Speaker 1: 8:38

yeah, I mean tell me about it. I think we have a couple of similarities there, because my first business was in hair and cosmetics and actually hair extensions. So I was 17 when I started selling hair extensions not only selling but also mounting. So you had these keratin hair extensions.

Speaker 2: 9:02

I don't know if back then, when, in that period, you must have yeah, we got hair extensions raccoon, I think we worked with at the time.

Speaker 1: 9:10

I can bonded hair extensions yeah so you had like the clip ones. You had the keratin one, they heated the glue one, so I got it. They were just coming to um hype at that point when I was 17, 18. So I started doing that and actually I imported from China, found like natural hair extensions and so on, and imported a bunch and started putting hair extensions, learn how to do it, watch some tutorials and stuff and, like yourself, I realized I'm better at business than actually doing the thing because I was very clumsy with my hands and such. So then I decided to kind of split and actually me being the business, the brand, using a lot of Photoshop, creating my own brand on it, having the logo sent to the factory and getting everything imported. And I started finding individuals that were into cosmetics or hair dressers or whatnot to help me actually do the um put it, putting the hair extensions in there. And then I started working with uh hair saloons.

Speaker 1: 10:28

I did have a hair saloon um at one point for like a year my own hair saloon and we were doing a bunch of stuff in there, but and this is the odd thing, right, so as well it. It kind of failed. It didn't go that well anymore, so I had to close it down. Um in 2011 and that's when I moved to uk.

Speaker 2: 10:52

So kind of like sounds like a very similar timeline and tony and guy.

Speaker 1: 10:59

So I know this brand because I used to work quite a lot with their products and they had in Romania as well quite a few. So it's a franchise. Basically, it's not like the parent company owns all of the….

Speaker 2: 11:15

No, no, yeah, it was a franchise. So it was probably to be honest. Tony was quite, I guess, an innovator in that sense he started the first hairdressing franchise. Yeah, it was huge and he had it nailed down to everything. So you got as a franchise, you would buy into it, but you used to use their accountants, used to use their software, the, the salon software, the product. He had his own product range. You had to buy that shop, fit out, he owned that company. So everything was tied up in one genius really from yeah, that was.

Speaker 1: 11:49

that was the first time like, and at that point franchises were getting more, more and more popular in europe as well, and I don't I think that was the only one, that tony and guy was the only one, that Tony and Guy was the only brand that was doing this, and it was such a prestige thing to either work at a Tony and Guy saloon or even be a client of it.

Speaker 2: 12:12

A hundred percent. Yeah, I think that's what I bought into because they were definitely market leaders. There was no one doing what they did. They took it to. But then, you know, over the years it changed very much. So even independent salons raised their bar. They was, you know, know you'd go in and you get that quality coffee, cappuccino, latte, whatever you wanted you. You know they'd have little snacks and you'd you'd have. The whole experience was and that's what it was about an experience and tony and guy had. But they were the first people to really set that bar that high for for salons, I think. And then you had lots of people Russia followed them and other other organizations have have done franchising there. But they they nailed it and at the time they were the market leader. You're right, they you'd go up to. I worked at London Fashion Week a couple of weeks, which was amazing. Um, just to be around and they was what they were trying to do within the industry was incredible, so it was great to be part of it. Um, one thing that we I really enjoyed actually like.

Speaker 2: 13:06

So, although I didn't cut hair, I did learn to do the wet shaving, which barbering was becoming quite a big thing. So I had a vision for the salon when I first took it over and it was like, right in the center of brighton, prince albert street was over three floors and my, my ambition was to have a salon downstairs, barbering on the middle floor and then beauty on the top floor. Well, no, things didn't work out and I said all the ups and downs of those three years I did about halfway through, about 18 months in, I knew it wasn't working. That's the honest truth. I knew it wasn't working but it was my first business. I didn't want it to fail. So I took a bit of time. I was like what can I do to to change this around? And and I learned to do the shaving, went on a lot of different courses and I ended up putting a course together for other Tony and Guy salons, because Tony and Guy didn't do it at the time. So I was training somebody other Tony and Guy salons would come to. Then I opened an academy on the middle floor and I introduced Barbara and that actually started to do quite well.

Speaker 2: 14:07

And then, because I was there, the salon, my eye wasn't on the salon. So that dropped a little bit. So it was always a challenge. But when I got to the end of that three years, when I finally closed it in 2013, I remember thinking to myself I've done everything I could, I'd give it my best, and it hadn't worked. But I've done everything I could, I'd give it my best and it hadn't worked. But I'd give everything I could. And although it was still a tough day going in I had 11 staff at the time, I think, going in and saying you know, we're having to close, this is, you know, this is the process, et cetera, et cetera. It was really tough but I knew, hand on my heart, giving blood, sweat and tears for three years and I'd thrown everything at it and it hadn't quite worked out and I felt a little that eased it a little bit for me, I guess.

Speaker 1: 14:56

What was the hardest part of having to close that down Was thought or emotion or process, whatever comes to mind I think I think a bit of ego side of it it was.

Speaker 2: 15:16

It was tough in the sense that you know, I told all my friends back in essex and all the other people around you go.

Speaker 2: 15:23

You know I'm gonna go and be this entrepreneur, I'm starting my business and, da-da-da, and three years down the line I mean to close. It was really tough. Going in and telling staff was a horrible situation. Like I say, I got emotional that day, I remember. But I knew, and I think they'd seen as much as I didn't quite maybe get the culture right and stuff there.

Speaker 2: 15:46

No one could say I done worked hard. I was there seven days a week, first in the one in the morning, last one to leave, go out there. I was doing everything. I'd be there scrubbing floors and all sorts. I was always very hands-on as a, as a, as an owner. Um, it was not the situation. I own this, you crack on and do it. I was there hands on and I threw everything at it and it just didn't work. So it was, but it was still a tough thing and I took a couple of weeks afterwards. I remember thinking to myself what do I? What's my next stage? And so many people go, oh, you're coming back to Essex now and I'm like no.

Speaker 2: 16:25

And a lot of people are like, oh, business thing didn't quite work out, so what are you going to do next? But for me there was a moment. For me I remember sitting in a coffee shop the morning I had to go into the salon and something come up on LinkedIn and it was the 10 rules of success and the top rule was accepting and understanding failure. And for me I was like, okay, so, and all the books I'll read or listen to, and all the more you go. All successful people have all had failures along the way and it's what we learn from them. So I just took it out.

Speaker 2: 17:00

I remember saying to my wife even at the time she was like what was your plan? And I she said, do we go back to Essex? She'd moved down as well. She was pre-kids and I was like trust me, I've made enough connections here and I've built enough of a community that there'll be opportunities here and I'll make something happen. And it did. Within a month of closing the salon, I was out. Within a month of closing the salon, I was out. I negotiated a situation where I brought into the company of firm balls and I took over that and and it was just a little part-time thing for this guy, like a bit of a side hustle when I took it to a yeah to a business is still running today and and making money and a month afterwards does, and I guess that's because you know you mentioned you're building a network and so on.

Speaker 1: 17:51

That's the power of having a good network and even if it's, you know, local, especially if it's local, and if you want to do something, just a month afterwards you're already into something else. And you said something very interesting, which I think it's such a standardized thing and I fucking hate it, which is you know, when you fail, everyone around you thinks okay, yeah, okay, you failed your business. Um, so what? Uh, what are you going to get into? What kind of job are you going to get? So everyone is kind of like standard default is well, your business failed, you're going back into employment. Yeah, now, that's, yeah, you're doing that right, something stable, something nice, and so on. Um, no one thinks and especially and I think it's mainly from primarily from people that are not entrepreneurs at heart, because that's not the first thought that comes into my mind. If I fail business and I suppose that was the same with you did you had any moments where you're like, oh, maybe I should get a job and just quit this all?

Speaker 2: 18:58

it's really funny. It's really interesting because so I, my mom and dad, um, I was brought out lovely people. I've got an amazing relationship with them, they're incredible, taught me an amazing work ethic, but we're not entrepreneurial. So they both had jobs. My dad had the same job for many years and retired and created a great life for me and my brother, but still I don't think understood me in the entrepreneurial sense, didn't? So when I closed it, I remember I had a little bit of a dragon's den moment. So I, although with the, I went to tony muscolo, um, and although I closed the salon because I'd created something quite special with a shaving thing, I ended up going in and pitching a big idea to them, to head of label M, which was the product range.

Speaker 2: 19:50

Um, tony himself, I had a panel of people and I went in and I'd created a whole movement into Tony and Guy getting into the men's grooming range. Um, I created a product range on the back of it from the courses that I would be able to do. So I went in and and look, they had all art directors and people in place. You know, honestly, didn't need me, great idea, didn't need me. So nothing really materialized from that um, but I had that in the background. I had the opportunity with Fernballs, there was a couple of other business opportunities that come my way, and then what come out of that meeting was the head of label m, the product range, said we're not going to probably go with this, but you're just a natural salesman, love your presentation, love what you did. Coming from an interview, we've got a potential opportunity and I went up for and I hadn't had an interview since I had the the first thing at tony and car and I was just like, should I go?

Speaker 2: 20:50

and it was quite a decent package and out of all these different opportunities, I went for that interview and I did sit down and they, you know they was like look, this is we can offer you the job. We want you to come on board. And I'm not. It was the least thing I wanted to do. But my mum and dad were like all the other opportunities I was talking about. But they would ring me and go why did you come to that interview? Have you got that? Because they thought that was my safe route, yeah, to go into it.

Speaker 2: 21:17

And I was just like and I said to my wife and it was like I said it was a decent package and we'd lost a bit of money, had to sell a property in Essex. She was like, oh, that's maybe a son. I was just like I know I'm going to be miserable doing that. That's not for me. I don't want to do that. I know this is not as much money and I know this opportunity to start another business and go into that. It's not the safest bet, but I can make it work. Trust me, I'm going to give it a go.

Speaker 2: 21:46

And it's hard to do that right. It's hard to get people around you who have supported you to go trust me again, because actually you've just lost lots of money. We had to sell a house and you're asking me to trust you on another thing. But you know, and I've been lucky that she's supported me and we've known each other since we was 11, me and my wife went to school together, been together 28 years and she still supports me today. I still look at her face and I go I've got this idea. She just goes, I've got another idea, but I'm such a believer that we're here. Life is an opportunity.

Speaker 2: 22:27

I don't want to get to the end of my days and look back and go what if I tried that?

Speaker 1: 22:30

yeah, if just give it a go, I've got to give it a go and you know what it's. It's hard, especially when people rely on you or you know there's other components of your life that and I think that's one of the things that a lot of founders out there have to weigh in and take consideration of it. And it's so hard because the only biggest support of yourself and believer, believer in yourself, is yourself, can be yourself right in a sense. Sometimes we kind of sabotage ourselves in in that sense, but I think it's because I'll give you an example.

Speaker 1: 23:18

So my family, my mom, my sister, they've always been as me growing up and starting getting into business and so on. They've always been as me growing up and starting getting into business and so on. They've always been like you. You are such a nerd you're, you're, you're, you're a genius, you're gonna make amazing things. Look at you with your computers and all of this stuff. It seemed like you're always on it. It's impossible you're to make it.

Speaker 1: 23:43

So they had this and my entire family has always been, and I think that's kind of like one thing that I've had which I had to tone down is this grandeur thing Because I was told when I was very young that I'm special and that I'm going to make a lot of things happen and so on. So my family had kind of like this blind trust in me in the early days and then I went out in the world and I failed my first business, the cosmetics business, and then I moved to uk and I've tried and failed so many other businesses in the first three years of being in in uk right like just trying stuff and doing freelancing to be able to survive, and trying and failing so much so that eventually my mom was like maybe you can come to italy and find a job here might be better for you and such. So even my mom that was my biggest supporter started looking at it and saying is this, is this uh kind of like genius resilience or is it mad approach to to things?

Speaker 1: 24:52

so maybe you know now they're like oh, we always knew that you're gonna make it this time and I'm like yeah, yeah, but you did have moments of of doubt and thinking that I'm not going to make it and you know, and and that was again. I'm kind of sharing this example as someone that had my back and kind of like always trusted that, even when I failed the first time. But I can only imagine situations where where your family is anyways unsure of you going into business and failing and kind of like having those pressures of, well, that's not for you, go and get a job. I think I.

Speaker 2: 25:32

I paint a minute, it's not. Look they. I was like I say I was brought up with the biggest gift, which is unconditional love. Yeah, no matter what, what I tried, what I did, what I failed at, irrelevant unconditional love and for me, and still today they still support me. I think they just don't necessarily understand that path.

Speaker 2: 25:56

It's a different generation. Their generation was you come out, you get a job, you work for 40 years and you retire, and that's for many people of that generation. So it's difficult for them to maybe look at that in that sense. But still support me. I'm still here for you, no matter what, help me out sometimes or whatever that looks like, but would still be there for me, no matter what, just trying to, I think, for their own thing. They maybe that path is because that's a safe path and that's something that they understood. I just don't think they necessarily understood it but, no matter what, still add their backing, still give me enough self-belief from a young age because of the unconditional love and because of that, still support and I'm still. I'm so close with them like they're, you know I love them to bits and I'm um and I know that they love me unconditionally and I know that that has given me, by having that background and that backing, gives you the confidence to go what's the worst that can happen yeah, the worst that can happen.

Speaker 2: 26:58

I've. I've sold a property to pay off some business failure. I've learned from these things. I've been in some really dark holes and some dark spaces and kind of, what am I doing? And, like you said, that self-doubt, that self-talk that we give ourselves, you must have been there, I'm sure. Where you go, am I doing the right thing? Do I just need to go? Do I just need to call this a day for me? Was the me? The alternative is that or there's this life where you can keep going and keep going. I'm going to give this a go. Like I said, I've got nine year old twins for me. If there's one thing I want to teach them, just to follow your dreams and believe in yourself. Follow your dreams and keep going. Because, who knows, that's the worst that could happen, but imagine what the best thing that could happen yeah, yeah, no, even today.

Speaker 1: 27:51

Right, I was like build a business successfully, sold it for a ton of money and so on, made it happen, right. So from from ignition to exit, but yet I'm still getting into a new business and within a different, completely different field, and I'm am I capable of doing this? Was that a one-time thing that happened and such. Yeah, and with what you said, I I think that is extremely valid.

Speaker 1: 28:22

We need to teach the youth, the younger generation, that they're valid, they're capable, they're apt to do so, because too much of extremes in a sense happens. In a sense happens, like you know. There's youth that comes out of families and environments where you know, never been, ever told or shown that they're capable of doing things, and then you always have that self-doubt in yourself. There was also stories like mine, which was completely the opposite Like me growing up, like my family was putting me on it. Like me growing up like my family was putting me on a pedestal, like I was some sort of genius and I went into the world thinking I'm a genius and failed hard, failed miserably, so much so that I that it, it switched to me being very feeling like I'm an imposter and that I'm out of place and that you know I'm not capable of doing much To this day.

Speaker 1: 29:35

I still have that. I made a video on my YouTube channel, I don't know, maybe two months ago, talking about self-doubt, and it's still a very strong feeling, feeling of it and it's because of that, you know, I went into the world thinking I'm so special and then fell hard and that switch and thought you know, like no, I'm actually, I'm not, I'm a loser. Um, so I think there's there's a balance to have where, with our youth, with the next generation of entrepreneurs and founders, we need to give them the courage and the confidence of stepping into doing their own thing and seeing that they're capable, while also, kind of like, showing the challenges. That's why I'm doing Misfit Founders right, like I'm talking about the challenges and our fuck-ups so that you are aware of those so that you don't, you know, go through a couple of courses.

Speaker 1: 30:37

Let's say, everyone applauds you because you won first prize in those business courses and you go into the world thinking that you're the best founder and entrepreneur.

Speaker 2: 30:46

Yeah, the world has a strange way of bringing you down to earth, right? Oh yeah, and I think that's it. I agree with you. I think there's a couple of things.

Speaker 2: 30:56

For me, the next generation, I think as important as that is the fact that trying to find what they love doing as opposed to anything else, just what, what lights you up, what excites you? What? Because so many people I think will, will be led into an entrepreneurial life because they see a lot on social media and Instagram and it's amazing life and I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a multi, a multimillionaire, and that's why these conversations are so great, because you can talk about the challenges and the fucking hard times that you're going to go through to get to that stage, and so much of what I talk about on mine is around that measurement of success. What does that mean? What does success mean to people? I mean it'd be interesting because, obviously, from your point of view, you've, I say, made it, but when you've got to a position of financial security or financial wealth, because so much in society is measured, the metric in which we measure, especially in business, the metric we measure success, is based on financial status.

Speaker 1: 32:00

Yeah, it is, do you agree?

Speaker 2: 32:02

It is in society, yes, in society. That's how we measure someone, do you agree? It is in society, yes, in society, that's how we measure someone. So you would be seen as a successful entrepreneur because you've built a business, exited, got a ton of money. What a success that person is, and I completely agree. It's really successful and that should be something. That's an achievement. That should be. But I don't feel for me, I don't feel that's the only metric. Um, my, my, my tagline on my podcast is called helping the world to see success differently, because I think within the business community, people would look at me as and I've been told by many people really successful. You know well, I'll openly share on here. Financially. No, I've, I've run some good businesses that are sustainable and making some money, never reached a financial position, never exited a business and sold lots of money. They do okay, the businesses financially and, like I say, I'm proud of what I'm doing with them. But not got to that stage. I'm 45 now.

Speaker 2: 33:14

When I was 40, I went into a dark place. It hit me hard because my entrepreneurial journey was going to be I'm going to be a millionaire. Of course, I'm going to build this business, I'm going to sell it. I'm going to make it and I'm going to make millions. And I didn't achieve that and I was like I felt like a complete failure at that point Because in my head I was like the measure of my success, if people wouldn't see me as successful because I haven't made that money, I'm not where I wanted to be. I'm not the millionaire I promised I would be.

Speaker 2: 33:41

What got me out of that dark space and that hole was the fact that I looked around and I was not. I was surrounded by love and I was surrounded by. I put love within the business community. I meet people and I've got some amazing friends here, amazing friends.

Speaker 2: 33:57

I've got people I've grown up with from school who were still my best mates, who would walk over hot coals for me and I'd do the same for them, and my mum and dad last said, who were still my best mates, who would walk over hot coals for me and I'd do the same for them. My mum and dad last said love me unconditionally. I love them. Beautiful wife, two beautiful kids, my brother's. My best mate lives in Australia and we're still so close. I don't know if I'd die tomorrow, but my measure of success, the metric in which my success was based on the relationships I'd had and the impact I'd had on them people. I think I'm doing all right and that changed the narrative for me and I've been on a little bit of a Listen. I'm still ambitious and I'll still push and I'll still create these things, and if money's a by-product of that, then fantastic. But actually I'm a lot more at peace with myself and in a better place knowing that actually I feel that I am successful in that measurement. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: 34:55

How much that makes sense, because I've been through the same dark place, but way earlier, and that, and that's what.

Speaker 1: 35:03

That's what social media nowadays and, uh, and I would say, just seeing what success is supposed to look like right, and you're not achieving it, and going to that dark place, thinking that you're a complete failure. Um, I got to that place when I was I think I was 28 and no, it was like 28 back in 2014-15 I think I was a bit younger than 28. Anyways, um, after failing my cosmetics business in romania and then spending three years trying to build, you know, I had the same thing. I was like I'm going to be a millionaire and that stems from my family, my parents and so on, telling me the things that they were telling me about who I am, and also seeing social media and all of the successful people, and I was like I'm going to be there, I'm going to be a millionaire, I'm going to have of money and that's that's my end game. Right, and failing so much and seeing that that doesn't happen took me to to a dark place as well um and the problem with me was that I'm I think I have ADD.

Speaker 1: 36:29

That also makes me kind of like I wouldn't say forget, but not prioritize certain things like, for example, my family.

Speaker 1: 36:42

I was in uk for several years, haven't seen my family in years, and the connection to my family was getting thinner right and I was alone. I didn't have anyone around, I didn't have a partner at that point or anything like that. So me being in that dark place of I'm a failure, I shouldn't exist, I shouldn't be here. What am I doing, right? I didn't have that leverage of you know, look at all the people around me that love me and that's what it is. So, and I haven't really talked about this that much, but there was a pivotal moment back then in 2014, end of 2014, where I actually done this, went to this thing that I think it's called landmark forum. It was this three days event, that kind of like dives into some of your inner workings and figuring out what is it that you're challenged with, and coming to a realization, in a sense, and that completely changed me and that was a kind of like the moment where I decided that I've realized their success doesn't mean what I think success means and that I'm loved and I have people around. And right after that event I kind of like reached out to my mom, to my sister, I said, hey, I'm coming to see you this Christmas. I need to be around you. I know that. You know you guys love me and so on. But it was a very dark moment because my mantra up until that moment was succeed or die. I was very unhealthy, I was. I was weighing 50 kgs. At one point I was kind of like killing myself with, kind of like um caffeine pills and staying awake 40 hours to code stuff to do things, and I was like I was on this journey of I either make it or I die. I I'm in the ground and yeah, and that helped me. That moment helped me um change and see success differently. Um, and I do.

Speaker 1: 39:11

Since then and you know me having an like I was already considering myself a successful person because I've achieved the stuff that I wanted. I've achieved peace, I've achieved a level of comfort that I needed in my life. Even when I was working because I worked for five years in London I was considering myself this was happening. After the whole my revelation I was considering myself a successful person. I have everything that I need. Look, I'm living in the Angel. It's a successful person. I have everything that I need. Look, I'm living in Angel. It's a beautiful area. I have a nice big room that I was sharing, I have amazing colleagues at work, I'm doing amazing work and so on. So I started kind of appreciating the things that I had and I started looking at the values that I wanted.

Speaker 1: 39:59

Is it money or is it something else, or is it not having to kind of like be on the streets or whatnot? I've had a couple of moments in Romania when I was sleeping rough and and such um. So, and I think I completely agree, and I think there is a very big similarity between what we're doing with our podcast. On one side for me is on social media and general media, you see these success stories and you think that you know you need to put A, b together and you'll be successful, when the reality is completely different. So I want to convey that. And on your podcast, you're showing that success doesn't mean money. For some it will, but success is what you make of it and you need to find your success. What makes you happy, right, what gives you that level of yes, I made it Because it shouldn't be money, but unfortunately in today's society it is. So with podcasts like yours we can spread more the understanding that that's a false narrative.

Speaker 2: 41:22

I think so I'm not saying that money is not important. We need money to survive. I think I've maybe not had a great relationship with money from an upbringing, or I come from a very working class background. I don't think I necessarily had a great relationship with money from an upbringing, or I come from a very working class background. I don't think I necessarily had a great relationship with money, but I think from I don't think it should be the only metric. We need it to survive and actually as business owners as business owners and being in those dark places where we haven't got any money that's what keeps us up at night, right.

Speaker 1: 41:57

My favorite exercise is running out of cash. There you go, very contextual here.

Speaker 2: 42:03

I like that. But that's exactly isn't like so I I'm I'm a very happy-go-lucky person. I've generally got people, if you ask in the community, I've got a smile on my face. I'm face, I'm an eternal optimist, believe that everything's going to be alright always. But what people don't necessarily see is them nights when you're robbing Peter to pay Paul. You're waiting for that invoice to come in because you've got to pay that one. And how am I going to pay the staff this week? And they're tough times and that does get you down and that's where money does become an issue, because you, because the thing that keeps me up at night is not the what am I going to do next or what's the next opportunity. I've got loads of ideas. I'm doing loads of things.

Speaker 2: 42:46

My podcast is called Different Hats because I run different businesses, right, so I've got all these things. The thing that keeps me up at night is maybe that lack of it. So there is a balance there to be had. I don't want to sound like we don't need money and we can all just. Of course we need it and it is.

Speaker 2: 43:05

But I don't think that actually it's not my driver anymore, it's not my this time next year I'm going to be a millionaire the delboy philosophy because actually, and I'll be interested to I don't want to turn the table, but I'll be interested to ask you like, because I've had some multi, multi-millionaires on my podcast and there's not one of them. I don't think that has gone. Yeah, I've got to that point and that was my euphoria moment and I made all this money and I was like, yes, like Kevin Byrne, for example, who sold Checker Trade for 90 million, sat there in front of me and he, he looked at me and he was talking about checker trade with so much passion, so much love and drive and you could tell him excited about it. And then I spoke to him about the day he sold it and he was like, yeah, that money went into the account. I went home, had dinner on the bed and he said as much as our, as much as our, that money's changed my life and it has he, it's changed my life.

Speaker 2: 44:00

I wish I still had what I had, because he said that was my purpose and that's what we need In life. We need a purpose and money as much as it can get us nice stuff and it can create comfort and some amazing experiences for you and your family and everything around that still need that purpose, right, yeah, and I guess, like what's fascinating like I'm only assuming, but obviously not knowing you that well, but get into the financial position that you did one of the reasons you're doing this? Because we need a purpose. You can't just go. I've made like you said that, made it moment. What does that mean? I made it. What do we stop then? What if I, if I did sell a business next year? When I made, I was a multi-millionaire and I said what do I?

Speaker 1: 44:47

do, do I stop?

Speaker 2: 44:48

yeah, it's not, it's life's, life's for living, and life's an opportunity. And will you ever stop? Will you ever? Will your brain ever go? Oh, what about this idea? I want to do this. Of course it's not because that's the way you're built right.

Speaker 1: 45:01

I think it depends on on who you're talking to, because I've I've seen people had people on the podcast and so on that were like I made my exit and now I'm retiring from doing stuff, I'll just be at home doing some gardening and this and that, and I'm happy with that, but that's very rare. I think a lot of founders need that constant pursuit of meaning and direction and things like that. Um, well, first of all, I wanted to also mention yes, I completely agree. Um, I can't be a hypocrite here and say money doesn't, it doesn't matter. When you know I've had a successful exit and so on, I'm the last person to talk about and say that money does matter. But one thing that I would say is I was happy and fulfilled as much as I'm happy and fulfilled now.

Speaker 1: 46:07

I was happy and fulfilled while I was building my jigsaw business, while I was working for five years before jigsaw as well. Right, yes, in the last year, because I've talked about this on the podcast prior um, in the last year or so of jexo. It was quite stressful and intense and it was kind of like a relief to get to the point that we were aiming, because we were aiming for an exit. It was. It was a. A big relief, right, in a sense, and I had that. Okay, we made it, we achieved our, our goal, but it didn't change. It changed my, it changed mine and nikki's level of comfort, but not our level of happiness and fulfillment.

Speaker 1: 46:54

In a sense, right, um, and it does, yeah, it does bring some benefits having that badge. Right, you know, I can't say I, things are a lot easier for me now than they were before. Right, I can enter any room and have a conversation and say I'm an exited founder and investor, investor, and people pay attention. Yeah, right, in a way it's sad because it still revolves around the money, value and worth. Um, you know, you can't say I mean, you know I enter a room and say I build um an application that you know helped 10 000 companies. This, that right, the, you know even saying that people still associate money. Oh well, maybe 10 000 is probably making a lot of money. Oh, well, done. If I don't mention the 10 000 and I say you know, I have a company that helps solve this critical problem in, let's say, project management or tracking or and so on, like I had. You're like, oh cool, and some people that are probably in project management will be like nice I might use that they don't really super validate you.

Speaker 1: 48:10

Oh you, oh you're. You're a guy that has been able to solve that. Unless you're talking about, I don't know, going to the moon or whatever. Ai that done? X, y, z and so on people are like, oh god, that's um. Sadly, we still live in that society where people put dollar signs to your value, right, so I can't be a hypocrite here. Yes, you know me, having an exit and becoming an investor and so on helps open doors pretty much. Um, and I think you mentioned about your guess that you know, had 90 million in the bank account and it was like he went to bed and nothing, no emotion, or not much emotion.

Speaker 1: 48:58

For me, it was actually different, and the reason why is because I was carrying a lot of baggage from my childhood, from, you know, my parents. My family told me growing up, you can do it, you're amazing, and so on. Right, so I grew up with this, as I mentioned, this kind of like attitude, attitude that I'm invincible. And then my parents divorced when I was a teenager and we stayed with our, with our mom, and our dad switched to saying you're all losers and you're not going to achieve anything in life, and so on so that even more gave me the uh, right, um, attitude.

Speaker 1: 49:38

And you know, been through a lot of hard moments in life and kind of like dropping and figuring out and figuring out, thinking I'm a loser, and so on eventually. So when that happened, I think I've had a bunch of flashbacks of my entire history and it was an emotional moment to me. It was like, um, it didn't meant much to me then in the moment, it wasn't like my end game and so on. But retrospectively, looking at all of those moments, it was, uh, you know, kind of like this, I would say a resolution to my past in a sense. I don't know if it makes sense right, it really does.

Speaker 2: 50:21

Yeah, I guess that. I guess maybe for you like a sense of relief, almost, that you've got to you. You, that was your drive and you wanted to get to that point and that's what would then validate, because we all, we all crave. Whatever way you look at, social media is more guilty for this, I guess more than ever but we crave external validation. Why do we post some stuff up there and we measure what that?

Speaker 2: 50:45

I'm going to put a message out there and I'm going to measure what that message is like by how many people like or share or comment, and that's going to be whether that's valid or that's a a good piece of content that I'll put out there, not the fact that these are my values. This is what I believe in and I'm going to put that out there because that's what I believe, not because I want to get X amount of likes and the same. I guess with that process it's getting to a point of craving. I guess a part of external validation from family members, especially if you've been told that for so long that you are going to. I have almost a sense of relief, maybe, for you.

Speaker 1: 51:25

But it was also odd because, as I mentioned, I'm happy and fulfilled. I've left. In the end of 2014, beginning of 2015, I left that whole chase and thinking of, oh, I need to make it in dollar signs means me making it. I left all of that behind and I built a foundation, a new foundation and a life on top of that of finding success in, you know, in the right values that I had and trying to figure out, okay, what are my values, and so on. So it wasn't like I was craving for this so much and then it happened, and so on. My identity was completely different at that point. Right, I think there was that one moment in time when that happened and the money came to my account, where I had all of the flashbacks of my youth, of my parents telling me this, my dad being nasty, my mom telling me to go to Italy, and so on. That kind of like gave me that rush of emotion right on the spot. It didn't really last that rush of emotion right on the spot. It didn't really last. It wasn't like, oh yeah, you know, moved on and continued and it's still have the same like. I don't feel different. I feel like I'm the same wild person that's chasing to do more stuff because I have an itch and you know and I suppose that's one of the things that you were talking about as well you have this passion and this craving to produce value and if money comes along the way, that's perfectly fine.

Speaker 1: 53:08

I think I'm in the same stage right now, although you get odd looks here and there, which is because people are like oh, you've done this, what's your next big move? I don't have any next big move. I have a podcast. I'm starting a. You know what's considered a lower tier business in the film production uh scene versus you know crazy sass, b2b, 10x multipliers type of business. I'm starting a business in a different um and you know I get reaction like you get. This shows you our society, right, like when people say, oh, I saw your exit, that's amazing. What are you doing now? You say, well, I'm focusing on my passion, being creative, and I'm doing some video and film. People are like, oh, yeah that reaction.

Speaker 2: 54:00

You're having a breakdown. What's going on? Not?

Speaker 1: 54:03

like the oh my god, that's amazing, you're able to do this. No, it's.

Speaker 2: 54:07

People are like oh, that's, that's cute, kind of but again it's back to the thing of, again back to what I was saying about the next generation and my kids. Just find stuff that lights us up. Just find something that you're passionate about, that you're going to get out of and telling them that you know whether I've even said if they wanted to go and sweep the roads for a living, if that's what they wanted to do, but they loved it because they wanted the world to be clean and I want to make a cleaner world and me sweeping them roads is gonna be. If you love that and you're passionate about every day, then you go do that and you go and follow that dream.

Speaker 1: 54:48

If that's your dream and that's what you want to do but do you reckon that you, being you right, as in your serial entrepreneur, has been having businesses for, you know, before they were even born? Um, you know, having your podcast being kind of like a public figure as well. Do you think that any of that kind of influences what they want to do and so on? Do you get that feeling that you know they're interested in this business and the stuff that you do, or they're completely opposite to that?

Speaker 2: 55:22

I don't know. You know what it's really. I really don't know. So my wife me and my wife are complete opposite ends of the scale. So I'm there, she's a criminal solicitor. Would I be a solicitor? Since she was 11? She went to university. She was one of the only people out of our school two people. She was the only one out of our school that went to university, qualified and very, very academic. So that's her route and she's gone and done that. She's a managing partner of a law firm and has done really well, ticks a lot of boxes for her Next stage is a judge. So she's. So we're both I think both of us with our kids have gone. We're still we're parents to you and we love you and we want to be around for you, but we're both still following our dreams as well and she's following her. She's going to be a judge and I think they see that.

Speaker 2: 56:13

So we've got the twins and they're Lucy and Sienna. Sienna's very academic, like Kelly. Lucy's more creative, like me. So from score wise, they're like polar opposites almost. But I do. I hope that the main thing I teach them.

Speaker 2: 56:32

I talk about business all the time. They see me get up and I'm going. What are you doing today? I'm going to do a podcast, I'm going to host an event, but the amex today because I'm doing a big tournament or whatever. So they see me doing all these things and I like when I'm talking about, oh, he's on your podcast today, daddy, and they can tell that I'm excited about it and I'll talk to them about it.

Speaker 2: 56:48

So I'm hoping that what it is, that they buy into that, whether I'd love to think I'd love them to get to a stage when they're 18, they finish in school, whether it comes to the point of university that they go to me that I don't know what I want to do, I'm going to go and travel the world. I'm going to go and find out what my purpose is, or my passion, or I'm going to undo them things. I've got this idea for a business. I'm going to start that. I hope that that's their path, that they just find it what they're passionate about, not to the stage where they go, where I think my generation was well, you go there, you go to university, you get a job, don't go to university.

Speaker 2: 57:34

I don't want to get onto the whole education thing. I think the education system is completely broken in my opinion, I think we still teach in a certain way. I think we should be in coverage in entrepreneurship, we should be in coverage in emotional intelligence and measuring emotional intelligence as much as we do academic intelligence, and I think that's not done and that's not taught in schools. And I think, in answer to your question, along the way, I think they will both go quite different ways. Of course they will, but what that will be, I honestly at this stage I don't know. Like I say, I think more than the business side. I mean, lucy has said to me a few times I'm not going to ever work for someone, I'll have my own business.

Speaker 1: 58:19

And if that's the case, then Well, I think it's pretty predictable what's going to happen.

Speaker 1: 58:24

Just by listening to you talk about how you are at home and with your partner and with them, I'm going to tell you what's going to happen. Yes, they're not going to go in the same direction, mainly because they see your example, with your, with your partner, that are in completely different passions and so on. So I think they they've understood very early on that that's okay. They don't need to stick together in a sense and do stuff together. And I think the second thing is, I think they will get passionate about their own things and, yes, they they would go their own ways. And here's why I say that because your culture at home and what you teach them and what you show them of your entrepreneur life and so on, and your partner of their own professional journey is polar opposite to, for example, a friend of mine where comes from a wealthy family. His parents are like they have a business. It's like a family-run business. It's like a family run business. And they're very polar opposite to how you describe your culture at home, as in you don't talk about business that much.

Speaker 1: 59:49

The kids have grown up thinking that this is kind of like a boring thing that needs to happen.

Speaker 1: 59:56

So when he grew up, nothing like absolutely no drive or or desire to go out in the world and take the world um on his own and and figure out things and be creative and do stuff like proactiveness. No, he stuck around the household and you know, kind of like tried to figure out, you know, maybe see if he hated the business, but like I don't know what else to do, just maybe I can take over the business one day, and so on. So, but that kind of like um romanticized the idea of being creative and pursuing your own passion, like his parents weren't talking passionately at the dinner table of oh yeah, today I've done this and that and then tomorrow I'm having this cool thing. I'm so excited because it gives me this opportunity. So, so no, those discussions never happen. So he grew up not having access to any of that. So of course he didn't organically have that drive to go out in the world. But that sounds like the opposite of what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 1:01:14

I think, even to the point where we go, I try to come away from even the conversation around that he's going to work to earn money to give us this life. I try and go away from that. I'm going to work because that's what I love doing and actually from that we get money to pay for the house and stuff, but as a byproduct of the things I love doing, I really, really want to try and I don't get it right all the time, um and but I'm really trying to go along that path that just that passion. Find out, do something that you love and then from that the rest will take care of itself. It will be a byproduct because you're doing it and it lights you up, it gives you a purpose and fulfills you and that's, like you said, for me.

Speaker 2: 1:02:00

We mentioned about success earlier. Success is different for every person, right? Yeah, everyone defines success in their own way and that's what I've learned from 120 episodes of the podcast. But I do think that what we're all trying to get to, what we're all seeking in life, is happiness and fulfillment. Money does sometimes, but not always, will, bring you that happiness and fulfillment. It's just living a life aligned with what your values are. Yeah, I think, as individuals, if we can get to that point, I I think that's okay.

Speaker 1: 1:02:42

Yeah, I think I'm in the perfect situation here, right, and I've been preaching this. Before getting to financial safety and all of this stuff, I've been telling people this stuff, I've been telling people this get to to find your happiness and what fulfills you before you reach financial gain. Right, because then it's different, right, if you first make money and then try to figure out what makes you happy and what gives you fulfillment. I feel that that's a lot more of a rocky road to go down If you're already happy and fulfilled and you're like I know what I love.

Speaker 1: 1:03:29

I love being creative, I love putting things out in the world, I love the art of creation, but also the output. Like and I've had a um, I'll share you that episode like I had a mini documentary made from paddle um talking about this and I say in there like if I, if I feel like I'm not providing value and I'm standing still, I feel like I'm lost somehow, right, so it's that constant pursuit of doing things, being creative and so on. So I found that way before, you know, even thinking of selling the business and so on. So it's different for me.

Speaker 1: 1:04:10

Like you know, I invest money in this kind of stuff right I don't go out and try to buy yachts and see if that makes me happy and such. Yeah, so I think it's.

Speaker 2: 1:04:21

I think I'll give you a really good example. I I interviewed a guy called chris goodman who, um, he's the co-founder of focus group, the um telecoms company here in sussex. So I interviewed him probably about 18 months ago. They've just actually had a merger. That's taken them to a billion pound company huge, huge organization but prior to that he was turned. They were turned over 140 million. He was already a multi, multi-millionaire. They sold 25 percent of it in March 2020. Said all of my financial I was already a millionaire. Said all of my financial I was already a millionaire but all of my financial dreams for my family, my next generations and generations after that, no problem.

Speaker 2: 1:05:06

We released his episode on World Mental Health Day because what we talked about was depression and anxiety and the problems he suffered after he said I'd spent 20 years of my life climbing this ladder, realising that my ladder was against the wrong wall. Because, again, back to your point of not really knowing what fulfilled him or what made him happy, thinking that was it. And he got there and was like I fucked up. This is not the ladder I should have been climbing. You know kids and family and stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:05:44

He now runs a foundation, focus Foundation where he gives back to support charities and he seems in a much better place because he's had to find that afterwards. And I think your points are fantastic, that you're going to actually find those things first. Hopefully, if you do get to that stage and that financial stuff comes in, fantastic. But you're not going to change as an individual because you know that's just going to enhance, maybe enable you to buy some nice things and whatever, but it's not going to change you as an individual. You're still doing the things that light you up.

Speaker 1: 1:06:14

And the mental health thing is, it's quite important as well because, kind of like, getting to a mature enough place to know what makes you happy and fulfilled I think this is going to be the the topic of this um, this conversation, because we said happy and fulfilled so many times. Yeah, um, getting to that stage can help a lot with the feelings of self-doubt, to potentially the tendencies of depression and so on. Like I've had moments, and I still have moments, where you know I doubt myself massively or that I'm you know a bit, have days where I'm not happy, like I feel sad and so on. Right, these happen.

Speaker 1: 1:07:05

We're human beings and I think most of us have emotional challenges as well as kind of like mindset and mental things that we need to deal with. But having direction and purpose, happiness and fulfillment, helps with that 100%. Like I have days where I'm not happy, like I might have a day where I'm like I'm so stressed today and I feel like I'm not worded what am I even doing? But because I direct my attention to all of the things that excite me and so on, that doesn't last. It, it's periodic, it's something short, right and and again, going to what we were saying here it's the same thing, like right.

Speaker 1: 1:07:57

So if you don't have your direction set and your values set and you don't know what makes you truly deeply happy, when you get those millions or you know, they say, oh, this is just short-term happiness. Well, the reason why short-term happiness is because you don't have your kind of like, your core um, established. So these fleeting moments, buying a mclaren hey, I drive it for an hour oh, I'm still depressed and I'm still sad and I'm still like don't know what's going on inside of me, um, that's going to continue to happen. So so I think that's more important for us as a civilization, as humans, to really truly find what makes us happy.

Speaker 2: 1:08:47

I completely agree and I guess a couple of things I'll take on from what you said there. I think there's 10 points in life and actually when you do feel sad, it's okay, we're gonna have, we're gonna go through times. Look, I said I'm an optimist, right, are you? You'll see people if you go into the business community, do you know sam? Yeah, I smile on his face and I'm that optimist. Of course I have, like I'm a human being. Of course I have shit days. Yeah, I'll get upset. I, I'm very emotional, I'll cry, I can be vulnerable and I'll have shit times and feel really sad and down, and I've been through them only recently, a few months back, and you're in a hole and you're like but it's recognising a couple of things, recognising that this too shall pass. Wherever you are at that time, this will pass. And the same when things are good. Things are great. At the moment, I'm touch wood. Things are going in the right direction. I'm enjoying, loving what I'm doing. Things are okay. Just got myself a little beach hut.

Speaker 2: 1:09:46

I sit there talk about my happy. I sit there, I swim in the sea, I sit there with my coffee and I've had a couple of moments. You should do a beach hut podcast.

Speaker 2: 1:09:57

I want it, but it's them feeling it, but even recognising, actually, this will pass as well. The good times will pass and that is part that's life. That's the rollercoaster of life, that we will go up and down, but accepting where you are right now okay, but that doesn't define me where I am right now. It's just going to be. I'm in a tough time and this will pass. I'm in a really great time. This will pass. I'm in a really great time. This will pass. Just recognising, but actually just bringing it down to the point of being in the moment, as much as you possibly can, appreciating where you are, with gratitude where you are right now, because we can't change what's gone on in the past. None of us know what tomorrow holds right.

Speaker 1: 1:10:38

But I'm right now.

Speaker 2: 1:10:40

And I don't know how you feel, but for me, doing a podcast is the thing that makes me be in the moment as much as possible, because we're sitting here having this conversation right, you're listening to what I'm saying. I'm listening to what you're saying, so we're going to try and respond depending on what each other have said. As saying so, we're going to try and respond depending on what each other have said, as opposed to you're not sitting there with a list of questions that you're going to ask me and then we spoke offline before you come on. I just want to have a conversation with you and find out a bit about you, similar to me, I have a conversation. It's not an interview, it's a conversation, and you have to be to have a real deep conversation.

Speaker 2: 1:11:15

You have to be in that moment yeah I think that's why I feel so fulfilled and happy doing it, doing a podcast, because it allows me to do that I'm working on outside of the podcast. I'm working on being more present in everything I do when I'm with the kids and I'm not looking at the phone, and I'm with them and I'm with them trying to do that. I'm not always great here, but we try when I'm with my wife not. Can I not see the top of your head in your baseball cap?

Speaker 2: 1:11:40

because I want to I want to have a conversation. We try and be more present, we try and get to them stage and I think, if we can achieve that, yeah, there's some, some gold there and some happiness. Super white wise words.

Speaker 1: 1:11:53

I'm going, I'm going to make it a bit more light-hearted and ask you a very stupid question. You've done over 100 episodes of your podcast now. Do you feel that you started? Taking some of your podcast hosting tendencies in the real world? That's a brilliant question.

Speaker 2: 1:12:18

I'll tell you mine afterwards. Sometimes I find it really. I think as a podcast host, you're naturally curious, right, we mentioned it, you're naturally curious, so I still find I'll be in. I'll go to a networking event and I'm having a conversation and I I I might start asking questions yeah, yeah, based like, based like.

Speaker 2: 1:12:36

I would do anything, and then all of a sudden, I'll be sitting around a table at a networking event and it may be I drop out and all of a sudden, how do they define success? And we'll get onto that. So, yeah, I have found that I can maybe use some of the hosting stuff when I'm out and about. Yeah, so I found that.

Speaker 1: 1:12:55

I'm doing the exact same thing, um. At events, it helps because it can generate a conversation and ask questions and stuff. But two things. One my all my friends know it right because you get into asking questions in the center and say, hold on a. Second are you podcasting me right now?

Speaker 1: 1:13:14

and I'm like oh, sorry about that yeah, yeah, yeah the other odd thing which I don't know if you have, but I definitely do is when I'm talking to people nowadays and I'm having a deeper conversation, I look them in the eyes. I I look at them quite straight and that can come across as staring. Right, I had a couple of people saying like wait, they were talking right now, just look at them, which I do on the podcast, right, I'm not like this, right, and and I was looking at them because I was focused on what they were saying and they're like why are you staring at me? Yeah, I'm not staring, I'm I'm just like looking at you because I'm like absorbing what you're saying. I understand, I'm, I'm deep into what you're saying. So, yeah, that that's the maybe the negative downside of it.

Speaker 2: 1:14:03

I don't know, but I think the, the art that's been lost, I think, over the years, is the true art of listening this is what this enables us to do as as hosts you yeah got to really listen, right. How many times have you been to an event or you're in a conversation and we wait for? We're waiting for that person to finish so we can say what we want to say oh yeah, as opposed to truly listening to what they're saying without thinking.

Speaker 2: 1:14:37

I'm going to respond to this with what my beliefs are. You're gonna really listen. So, like the book I'm putting together at the moment from the podcast is called lessons from listening, because I've learned we both mentioned how much we've learned from having these conversations, right, but I really think that only happens. This has enabled me to become a much better listener. I'm not just waiting for that person to finish. I'm listening to what they're saying because I'm intrigued and, like you said but you have that, I'm the same as you. I will look at that person in the eyes and I feel like there's a connection there, because you want to really listen to what they're saying, as opposed to just when you're doing the other thing, which the majority of society will do, because that's how we are. I've got something important to say. So, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, I'm listening to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but okay, well, thanks, you finished now. Well, I'm going to speak to you now. No, really listen.

Speaker 1: 1:15:28

That's so annoying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so annoying. It's either that which is quite common of people being like okay, finish Right. The other bit is people just not looking at you at all when you speak Right, which again can make you feel like they actually don't even care about what you're saying. So just like yeah looking over your shoulder.

Speaker 2: 1:15:56

Who could I speak to?

Speaker 1: 1:15:57

Yeah, exactly so, and that taught me a lot. I watch all of my I don't know if you watch your podcast back and yeah, I watch all my podcasts back and I feel that I'm learning so much about myself as well and, like I'm, I'm I'm teaching myself by watching those uh podcasts back there. Each episode is how to get better at listening, at understanding, at not talking over people, at not saying to way too many times because that's again like that's. Well, we can be come across as varied, various ways, depending on how you interpret it. Yeah, but I was. I was curious what those side effects of doing a hundred it's, it's, it becomes.

Speaker 2: 1:16:41

I don't know about you, but certainly for me, I almost feel like I'm I'm in therapy. It's like very cathartic for me because, like I said, most of the stuff I talk about similar to you, things I'm curious about and running a business and how people have got to where they are and what they and I find that fascinating. So I'll talk about work-life balance and how do you achieve that, your kids, what does that look like? And trying to get into people. So, but mainly all the problems that are the issues that I have I can find out from these people what, if there's similarities there, and how they get over them things, and I think it does become a really, and there you go with paying, you listen over, it does become a really and there you go with pain, you listen over, it, does. It becomes very cathartic. It's a very, it's a, it's an amazing, an amazing thing. I think I love it and what's.

Speaker 1: 1:17:27

you know, I, I'm I'm not gonna ask this because people ask me this, and I actually get a bit annoyed when people ask me this which was about the podcast. What's the end goal? Where are you heading with the podcast? Which, for me, personally, that feels like such a non-question. But what would you like the, the, the next bit for you to be in terms of what would give you, um, that sense of fulfillment in the next I'm not going to say years, or, but what's the next thing that, what are you chasing right now, in a sense, that could give you, um, that extra dopamine of fulfillment?

Speaker 2: 1:18:14

let's call it like that. Really good, really good question. I think I'm I'm really I'm at a place at a moment I'm trying to the the podcast is called different hats because of the amount of different businesses. I'm trying to get to a place where, potentially, I can offset some things, where I can really focus on what I'm trying to do and I think the business community that I'm building the business club, the podcast being a big part of that um, sharing stories and the true connection that we get from sharing stories is something that I'm really passionate about and I want to really hone in on that and focus.

Speaker 2: 1:19:01

I think there's lots of metrics, especially within the podcast that you go again, we're back to that external validation and what that looks like. I'd love to get 10 000 subscribers and you know, do this, etc, etc. And loads of followers and all of them things that would be a nice byproduct of what I'm trying to do, I guess. But I won't leave for me. I've always said it.

Speaker 2: 1:19:27

I think if, if people are still willing to come on and have a chat with me, great, if people still listen, and I'll get. I can get one comment on a podcast episode or one linkedin message saying I listened to this and it really helped me by one person. That's enough for another. Another six months a year for me to go do it, keep going right, just because I feel that, if we can, there's so many out there at the moment. But I still think that we all have our own style and we all have our own way of having a conversation. I think if that for me, if I can just keep building this community that I'm trying to, and help to change that narrative a little bit around what success really means and how we define it and measure it, measure it, I guess if I can keep on that path, I think that I'll be I'll be happy and fulfilled with that and it's not.

Speaker 1: 1:20:27

You know that's. This is one of the things that I, um, I've kind of set for myself as well, and you're right, because you're talking about the chasing numbers and so on. It can be so. You can get hooked into it, of course, and if you chase numbers all the time and so on, you can also get depressed because you're like oh wait, I'm not growing, it's not, it's not working. I failed, I failed, I felt right. So, but but I think you're at. It sounds like you're at a place where you understand your priorities, which is, you know, you love to have conversations, you're a chatty person, you're in your environment when, when you're having these conversations with, um, with individuals.

Speaker 2: 1:21:14

So you know, it like you're.

Speaker 1: 1:21:18

It doesn't require a lot of energy, at least for me it doesn't require. Like you came in, I was like, okay, let me turn the cameras on, bam, let's go right, exactly so. It's not like something that you put a ton of um effort into generating and then, from what I understand, which seems to be kind of the my same ethos, in a sense, is if you can get one person per week or whatnot to to come and say, oh man, I took so much value out of that, you're happy. I'm the same, I'm in the same boat. Yes, sure, I would love for the podcast to reach more people, because it means we're helping more people, um, with some of this information and so on.

Speaker 1: 1:21:57

But at the end of the day, you know, it's people. People keep on asking me this, this question, and I know I'm gonna offend a couple of people by by saying that they're annoying by asking this question, because they're probably watching this podcast. People keep on asking me this question. Oh, what you? So what are you going to do with the podcast? Is this your kind of like? Trying to figure out if this is my business, right? Is this what I'm doing?

Speaker 2: 1:22:21

as a business. If you've been asked this how do you monetize it?

Speaker 1: 1:22:25

then yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: 1:22:28

No, I always say do you charge your guests to come on? I'm doing it similar to you, right? We're doing it because we believe that there's a message out there. These conversations, hopefully, are going to help people when we want to put value into the world, and that's a good thing, right yeah?

Speaker 1: 1:22:46

I mean, if one day it's going to get to a point where, okay, well, we have opportunities for sponsors and so on, all of that will go into, you know, getting better edits and reaching more people and so on, but that's not a business. This is like something that I do as a kind of like give back to the founder community. You know, um, so no, that's that's. That's really good and, uh, interesting to hear from someone else, because every single time I ask I didn't ask it on the podcast that much, but I had podcast hosts and when I asked the question, where are you heading? It was like, tell me numbers and a bunch of KPIs and so on I'm like, okay, that's fine, that's your way of doing it, that's your way of doing it.

Speaker 1: 1:23:32

But you know, I also think that we live now in a world where you start a business, a product, a service, this, that and one of the go-to mediums for organic is podcasting. So there's so many companies and founders out there that start podcasts because they want to promote their product per se, and I don't know if you had this, but I've had so many challenges in finding because there's marketing companies out there that nowadays focus on business podcasts, saas podcasts and so on and they give you packages where they kind of promise you oh well, with our marketing bid, you're going to increase your ROI to your business, like I don't know, 2x in the next six months or 3x in the next six months. And when I reach out to them and say, hey, I'm having this podcast, are you able to help? A lot of them turn me down because they're like, oh yeah, but I mean, we're doing this in order to grow your business income and your inflow of customers. Like, I don't have any KPIs to give you.

Speaker 1: 1:24:55

You're you're an indie podcast, so our podcasts are called indie podcasts nowadays, because it's not. It's not tied to a business, right? It's not tied to. I'm doing this, I'm sharing my expertise in order to sell my, my product or my service, which is perfectly. But that's the status quo nowadays, versus what we're doing, which is like, hey, this is great. Sharing putting more people, platforming more people and so on. Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2: 1:25:25

It's strange. It's definitely there and I do get asked that a lot about the monotone. I guess mine is, in a a way, mine's linked to the businesses.

Speaker 2: 1:25:36

it's part of the business club in the sense that it's another medium that we've got to yeah to share stories, um, but, and people come and become part of that membership organization and they have the ability to come on the podcast and share their story. But it's not the, I think. For me personally, on a personal level, it's being someone in the business community for nearly 15 years now I'd like to think I've built a network and a reputation within that. The podcast has definitely elevated that to a degree. Um, but I think genuinely, because people see similar to yourself, I guess people see that is that, is that passion. I absolutely love it.

Speaker 2: 1:26:25

So it's not going to be a case of this is my passion and what I've found, something that just lights me up. Whether it's my purpose or not, I love doing it. So I'm going to continue to do it as long as I'm creating a life for myself that allows me to do that. As long as I guess back to the money thing, the business stuff that I'm doing pays my bills and keeps me at that level and that's growing and doing what I need it to do. Great, it still enables me to get up every day and choose where I'm going to go, and that choice is an amazing thing to have and I guess that's a level of success again that you go, I'll get up and I'll get the choice to. I'll make my own decisions and my own choices based on what I want to do with my life, and that's something quite special, I think it's also I think it's a um, a really good place I would call it privileged place for us to be in, right in a sense.

Speaker 1: 1:27:25

Um, because a lot of people do things because of a, you know, very specific need. Um, yeah, and sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't, because it comes across as doing something for a very specific need, if you know what I mean. Absolutely, um, 15 years, 15 years in the business community. It's a big question, but what's the biggest takeaway? Something that ask, usually ask just whatever comes first in in your mind, I think one of the biggest lessons I've learned is a couple one that relationship with failure.

Speaker 2: 1:28:08

Don't be afraid to fail. I think it's a big thing for me learning that quite early on. Failing quite on enabled me to do that. But the big thing is actually the key in everything that we do in life is just to be present as much as we can, recognize actually how far we've come, be grateful for that and look around and be grateful, practice gratitude, be grateful for where you are right now, because me, five years ago would have loved to have been sitting here having this conversation and having and recognizing that and being grateful is such a such an important thing, I think, for any business owner, because we can constantly, constantly be chase, chase, chase yeah I'm gonna get there.

Speaker 2: 1:29:08

I'm gonna get there. Don't actually know necessarily where that's gonna be. Get there, don't actually know necessarily where that's going to be, and the worst thing that we can do is delay our happiness until we get there, because we promise ourselves that when we get there, everything's going to be all right, it also keeps you sane, isn't it like?

Speaker 1: 1:29:26

like having living in the moment and being grateful for where you are and what you're doing helps, keeps you sane, even if, like, it's okay and great to chase stuff I chase stuff, you chase stuff but without that, um, satisfaction and and looking at what you have and being grateful for the things that you are experiencing now, you just go crazy. You just stress and unhappiness and so on, and we all know that all of that, like if you're in deep stress and feeling these feelings, of these negative feelings that physically affect you as well, right so? Like you're gonna get ill, things will happen. If you, if you exist in this constant state of unhappiness and stress because the only thing that's going to make you happy is this one you think that you're it's long, long away and you're chasing that and you're like ignoring everything. I used to do that and I was so unhealthy, even physically, right so?

Speaker 1: 1:30:40

yeah it helps keep you sane and healthy, just learning how to cherish um those moments that you're experiencing today I agree.

Speaker 2: 1:30:50

I think that we can. We can live in under those entrepreneurs. We become very good at living in survival mode. We survive, we're fighting fires.

Speaker 2: 1:30:58

We're putting out a fire there, we're putting out fire, we're surviving, um, and we become really, really good at that. That's not a healthy place to be. We don't want to constantly just be surviving um, and getting to that point where you're appreciative of where you are and grateful for where you are at this moment, and looking around and being grateful for that, it does really help with that whole process, I think, and getting us out of that survival mode a little bit. And, like you said, because without our health, we've got nothing and it's important to look outside, whether it's running, swimming, whatever it is that we do, exercise and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 1:31:35

Trying to have their moments is key, is key I usually end with three flash questions, but I do have one other question that you can expand on, the answer with which is, I know, kind of like. Failure is a word that people don't like, right, some people which you know, each with its own. It's like calling it moments of learning, in a sense. Yeah, still, you failed in that moment. What was? What was that biggest moment in your career this 15 years? Um, so far that you felt that was the biggest fuck up that I've done? How long have you got?

Speaker 2: 1:32:39

Just one, one that comes. I guess, for me, probably the salon was the biggest failure. Like I say, I had to close that business. I haven't closed one since. So I had to close that business. I haven't closed one since, so I had to close that business and stop it. So that would probably be the biggest failure that I've had, like I said, financially as well affected me. I had to sell a property that I had in Essex to pay off some of that money. So it was a tough time emotionally, financially, all of them, things that come on, and the fact it was my first business.

Speaker 2: 1:33:16

My first business and it didn't work, self-doubt, questions, all of those things that come in. But, like I said, it was probably the making of me, in the sense that it was my first step on that entrepreneurial journey. And I think maybe I've always said to my wife I said if I needed to put food on the table, I'd go out there. If I had to drive an Asda van, I'd go and do that. In 15 years, thankfully, I haven't had to go down that route. I've always worked for myself and had my own business and I think maybe I'm unemployable now. I don't know many entrepreneurs we say a lot of people said that mine, you know, maybe we're unemployable now, but I always believe that things will be all right and because I've been to that place and I know what that failure looked like and and I'm not saying that the business I've got now if they did fail tomorrow, I still think I'd get up and you dust yourself off and you go. I'll come up with another idea and we'll go again, because that's what we do.

Speaker 1: 1:34:16

Yeah, exactly. Well, this is a really insightful and pleasant conversation to have, because I think we share so many similarities, from the odd background of being in the same kind of industry with 2010s to the podcast and what we're trying to do with the these platforms. I usually end with three flash questions. Number one what's a quote that you live by?

Speaker 2: 1:34:52

just do it. Just do it, yeah. Say yes to opportunities. Right, go and I'll do. I'll do believe. So many people come on and ask me about stuff and you know what advice would you give? I just just go and do it, just give it a go. What's the worst that can happen also, what's the best that can happen. It's balanced out, but you're not gonna know unless you do it right I've learned that as well.

Speaker 1: 1:35:18

You know it's you can give the the craziest good advice until someone does it and goes through certain things on their own. Um, it's not the same thing, it's never the same thing. So, yeah, a really good one book, book that impacted your life, either personal or professional path um, it's been a couple actually over the last few years.

Speaker 2: 1:35:54

Um think, like a monk with jay shetty was an amazing book. Um, so much of it around about, uh, around being present. I think that's really helped me a little bit. Um, from an entrepreneurial side of things, shoe dog was amazing. Um, I had a massive impact. I thought it was a fantastic book talking about an entrepreneurial journey from the founder of night feel night just incredible. Yeah, those two I probably had been. I'd had a big impact. I don't read a huge amount aud.

Speaker 2: 1:36:31

Audible's changed my life. I've listened to more books in the last four years than I've probably ever read in my entire life. So I think, yeah, there are some good ones.

Speaker 1: 1:36:43

I've heard quite a lot about Think Like a Monk by Jay Shetty. I'll probably wind up listening to that as well, because I'm not an avid reader. I listen to stuff and watch stuff a lot more Good habit that you advocate for.

Speaker 2: 1:37:22

Exercise is a good thing. In getting out in nature and exercise I'll see swim a lot um for me. I get up early five o'clock. Most mornings I try and get down and swim in the sea or poor, depending on whether it allows. I think just is a great start to the day, Sets me up for the day If I haven't got in the sea or have a cold shower, just something along that, just that really really helps me from a habit point of view. If I haven't done some form of exercise at the beginning of that morning, I don't feel as great for the day. It's a good start to the day, I think, for me.

Speaker 1: 1:38:05

I was going to say because you know, cold shower or getting into a cold sea, it's kind of like boosting endorphins and adrenaline, so it helps start the day. But my question to you is because I've heard you talk about this quite a lot, doing it so often like getting into the sea. So often is it still cold for you, or you go in and like it's the right temperature.

Speaker 2: 1:38:25

Honestly, it's still. It's still. Look, you get in, you get. You definitely acclimatize to it and you get used to it. Like this is the first year. It's the first year I've gone through the winter without a wetsuit and gone in most as much as I can, um, and you do get used to it, but it's still free, like even even for a cold shower. I'll stand in there hot shower the last two minutes. I set me a timer last two minutes and still have to build myself up to get back in there. Right, you turn it on the cold, you go okay let's do it.

Speaker 2: 1:38:56

But you breathe in and you get in, but it does, it releases something. But there's something about the way, especially the way to see it. This morning it's like a meal pond. You go in and it's still freezing probably 11, 12 degrees at the moment. It's still pretty cold probably 11 12 degrees at the moment it's still pretty cold. But you go in and you're within nature. I mean you just go wow, that's uh, that's uh. So, yeah, I'd recommend something like that to start your day off. Just get your, your mindset in place. I'm ready. I feel like I'm ready to go. Once I've done it, I'm ready to to go right, perfect.

Speaker 1: 1:39:32

I completely agree. I go train. That's my endorphin boosting in the morning, and when I don't, you know I'll wake up lazy. I feel like crap. Yeah, it's terrible, awesome. Thank you so much for accepting to do this. I'm expecting an invite to your podcast.

Speaker 2: 1:39:52

Joking, I'm expecting an invite to your podcast. Joking, I'm not gonna pressure you here. It's been it's and I've loved having a conversation. Love what, obviously, what you're doing. Love your setup as well. Very jealous of this. But, um, yeah, it'd be an honor to have you on um, so we're lined up, I'm sure you.

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