Misfit Founders
Misfit Founders
Lucy Sambrook on Building PR Strategies That Empower Entrepreneurs
In this episode, Lucy Sambrook, founder of PR for the People, shares her journey from journalism to entrepreneurship, discussing the evolution of PR, managing client expectations, and empowering business owners to take control of their own public relations.
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Well, lucy, let's start off with a quick intro. Just who is Lucy, and what is it that you do?
Speaker 2:So I am a journalist turned PR coach and I run PR for the People, which is a PR agency, and also I coach lots of business owners on how to do their own PR as well and take it in-house you do I honestly.
Speaker 1:The first time I saw PR for the people, I'm like hell, yeah, that's how. That's what a company should be called, could it? Because it is for the people's yeah, that's.
Speaker 2:It's one of those really nice business names that just came to me like the second I thought of the business. I just knew what the name was going to be, um, which is always really nice when it happens like that yes, like misfit founders now um disclaimer, here we also have a relationship.
Speaker 1:We actually work together um you're helping me a lot with the you know pr stuff and um putting misfit founders brand and name out there. So you know if it's if it's working and misfit founders becomes famous. We, we all, know who to praise. If it doesn't we all, whose fault is it? No, pressure no pressure just put, I just put you on the spot publicly now watch this space, guys.
Speaker 1:It's gonna be fine, but the thing is that I've I actually quite enjoyed working with you in the you know few months that we started working with, and the reason why is not just because you've been doing this for 10 years and you're super connected and we'll get into that and you know all of the sources and so on, but also you have a certain type of way of making people feel comfortable and just making them feel trust that you know what you're doing in a sense.
Speaker 1:So every single time I'm like, um, oh, here's these things, oh, here's that, and you tell me about this and I'm like, oh, okay, here's okay, that sounds cool, and so on. But I also think that I'm a massive headache to work with you're not.
Speaker 2:You just you think about everything quite deeply, and that's not a bad thing. Like I'd always rather communicate with a client or a business relationship, I think that's the best way to be do you usually get people, customers like this, that are like very difficult customers yeah anal about certain things.
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't want to sound like this. Uh, oh, I don't know about that publication and so on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it happens all the time. Yeah, especially with PR, because I think people it's their reputation, right, so people are often worried about how they're going to be portrayed in the media or, you know, they don't really understand what PR is. So they have a lot of questions. I get that a lot.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, do not feel alone okay, cool, I feel better then yeah okay, so tell me a bit about your background Before we get into. How did you come up with this idea of running your own agency? I'm also interested in the whole concept of empowering people to do their own PR. But first a bit about your background.
Speaker 2:So my background, so both my parents are just going right back to it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Both my parents are teachers and they both had been teaching for like 30 or 40 years, so not an entrepreneurial family at all. But I kind of grew up with both of them moaning about their jobs and hating their jobs for like 30 or 40 years. Um, so I was always I've always kind of you know, if been one to to know that if I'm not liking a particular job or a situation, um, then the best thing to do is move on and try something else, cause I kind of grew up seeing them be unhappy in their jobs for like 30 or 40 years and I knew that's something I didn't want. Um. So but then, yeah, when I went to school and university, I did go down the really traditional route of you know, if you go to university you're going to get a good job, um and um, I studied journalism and english literature.
Speaker 2:Um, got a first which I I don't know how I pulled off with the amount of party I did so you're a proper um book nerd oh my god, yeah, totally like I used to be late for school because I loved reading and still do, absolutely like, adore books and magazines and reading and writing, um, and yeah, I guess that's kind of what led me into journalism. Um, and yeah, started out writing for the metro in London, on the news desk, on the lifestyle desk, sorry when, um, when I was 22 maybe, um, and I had to turn out I think it was between seven or eight stories a day for the website, which was a bit of a shock to write seven or eight stories every single day.
Speaker 2:Jesus yeah, so it wasn't really like the proper kind of journalism that I'd really um thought it was going to be wait.
Speaker 1:What kind of stories were these?
Speaker 2:so it was. It was, oh god, anything and everything, so it could be. It was lifestyle, which which means anything to do with living, so literally could be like dating trends or new food trends or the best 10 new restaurants to try in London, or anything to do with wellness, yeah, anything and everything.
Speaker 2:But it was quite kind of like clickbaity and so the main aim was to drive like readers and clicks for the website, rather than kind of having the time to investigate different stories that you wanted to do so that was your uh slaving away moment getting into, um, getting into this kind of like um digital publications.
Speaker 1:Was it digital or is it a printed uh publication?
Speaker 2:um. So I worked for the, the website team, which was completely separate to the print team um, and a lot of newspapers do work that way. I think, yes, it was just for online um, but yeah, it wasn't really what I. I thought it was going to be um, so it was. At that point I thought you know what the other side of journalism is, pr. So I will try to go into what in the industry, is known as the dark side of journalism dark side, the money making side oh, you know, prs just get such a bad rep.
Speaker 2:Honestly, like there was um, one of the Oscar winners recently thanked her PR in her speech I can't remember her name now um, and all of the pr industry were like this is amazing. She's actually thanking the people that, like, are behind the scenes and often kind of get a lot of shit. And can I swear, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah anything goes.
Speaker 1:But wait, what? Why? Why do people? Why is pr such a scene such in such a bad light? I don't get it, um.
Speaker 2:So I think, like historically pr has been, has a reputation of being kind of twisting the truth and kind of spinning the truth um and um, and that's kind of. I guess some people have done that, but, like in any industry, there's going to be good eggs and there's going to be bad eggs, um, so pr can actually be used for such good things, like you know, it's raising awareness of the things that need to be talked about, um, and you know, giving it can be given a voice to people that don't normally have a voice.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I think PRs definitely don't deserve the bad rep that they get. Yeah, I mean, you're doing a great job in promoting a good cause and also making me look good. It's a different story, um, but yeah, I know, I think I I understand why. Because you can. You can wash someone's image and have it with pr. You can have them sit on this pedestal as this, you know perfect human being and so on. Where that might not that might, that's never the reality of things, right?
Speaker 2:definitely not, and I think the key to pr these days um is not being perfect, is it's kind of being relatable and it's having a story and having flaws and if you make a mistake it's owning up to it. So I think good pr has completely switched around from what it maybe used to be 20 years ago, when celebrities would just want like that perfect photo you know in a magazine, and now it's all about sharing what goes on behind the scenes, like I always kind of mentioned the Beckhams documentary that they did recently as as an example of tell the truth, good pr that became one of the biggest memes.
Speaker 1:But it's also great that, um, um, uh, what's her name? Victoria, victoria, victoria, victoria, push. I wanted to call her posh but I was like, let me not. Um, you know that she's embracing the meme and she's, she made her own merch with uh, my dad, uh, drive, drives a range rover.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, it's a pr dream, honestly, like. So, yeah, the beckhams weren't having the best time with their pr and their kind of relatability, um, so obviously having the the best pr team that money could buy, they did a netflix documentary, um, but even though obviously everyone of us won't be able to do a netflix documentary, there are other things. So, apart from you, there are like, definitely little lessons that we can learn from it. Yeah, um, so you know, they really strove to like show the domestic side of their life and their relatability, um, and beckham kind of, you know, roasting his wife and what was more relatable than that?
Speaker 2:um, and more kind of like look, we're just, we're just the same as you, as you guys, um, and I think, yeah, as an absolute masterclass in um coming across as relatable and showing that side.
Speaker 1:To be honest, you know that. You know that's the one thing that um, um pr is good for washing your image. When I say washing, I mean cleaning your image right, make, making, making you feel it look more relatable, and so on, because at the end of the we are right. So and I don't talk, I'm not, I don't mean we as me, I'm, I'm not a celebrity, I'm not like right but I'm in general as, as as humans, you know, everyone's relate.
Speaker 1:everyone has their own habits that you know. They might be at a certain level in their life and their you know fame and um, wealth and so on. They might, they probably still have a lot of the habits that you and I have, right in a sense, um and conveying. That is great because it creates relatability. But the one thing that I've noticed which honestly I don't think is fair, and I've been told this right, I have a nice house, I have a nice car, I've sold my business and I was able to afford certain things, and you know I don't shy away from saying that, right, I'm living my life, spending my hard-earned money and so on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you work damn hard for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Definitely. You know, I've been advised not to post. You know, don't wear watches when you're recording. Don't post your car online and things like that, and I think this advice was from people that, in a sense, wanted my best interest at heart, but also thinking of creating that relatability with the audience that's watching these and you know, I've and I've been conflicted at times about this thing.
Speaker 1:right like here I am, you know um, with all my expensive gear in my poshy, you know fireplace, doing a podcast for aspiring founders that you know there might be at the the start of their journey, struggling with certain things. And you know I made it right in a sense. Am I the most relatable with some of the audience that's watching these podcasts? Potentially not, I know I have a lot of things that I relate to. I'm coming from suffering and this and that and just failing businesses and challenged and scratching my head around certain things.
Speaker 1:I've been through that and I continue to be through that, while building other businesses and even doing Misfit Founders. But I don't agree with the other extreme. I hate the whole flaunting your wealth and posting you know, living through instagram just posting your holidays all the time and you know your expensive watches and kind of like being super flashy and so yeah, definitely um, so I hate that extreme, but I also don't relate that much to to the.
Speaker 1:You know, be as modest as you can. Don't wear anything dress down to, to be more relatable to, to, to, to people that, uh, that you're talking to, and so on. I'm somewhere in between. You know, if I like a watch, I'm gonna wear that watch if I like a piece of clothing. I'm gonna wear it on camera so I don't absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think the key to it is just being you, um, and just doing what you would normally do, and not changing that like one way or the other to try and please people, um, because also you are really inspiring, like you've got such an amazing no I'm not, we're just talking about that.
Speaker 1:I'm a middle aged white man that has a very mediocre character.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, but your success story with business is really inspiring, and I think that is something that people want to see, um so I don't think that you should shy away from that at all yeah, but it's again it's.
Speaker 1:It's interesting because, again, yes, you're right, you know that that netflix episode is, you know. I mean, they do share some of that. You know, because you know victoria is at one point talking about going and doing her tan or this or this. I was like, well, I'm going out, where are you going? Oh, I'm busy. I was like, yeah, you're busy going and doing your, your nails and living the good life and so on. Um, but it is very much the narrative there is. Make it as relatable as possible. Um, which is great. I think that's what a lot of pr people will tell you. Um, and I'm surprised how you didn't tell me to take down the watch. Or um, wear more misfit founders t-shirts can you dress like a misfit please?
Speaker 2:no, like like you're not wearing like head to toe, versace or anything like that, unless I'm missing something, but like I don't think that. You know, I don't think you do come across as overly flashy. So if you, if you do, then I will tell you. Okay, I'm happy because again, I've been, I've been.
Speaker 1:You know, for me I don't care right, I, like you know I'm gonna be the way I am, uh, but because I've been told, oh well, you know, if you want to build um and spread the message of it's okay, this and that and you're talking to various people try not to. You know, maybe dress down, wear a t-shirt, a baggy t-shirt, be as humble as you can, and so on. And I've been a bit self-conscious in a sense, because I'm like no, I do wear baggy t-shirts. And I've been a bit self-conscious in a sense because I'm like, no, I do wear baggy t-shirts and I can be a hobo at home sometimes that's why?
Speaker 2:that's why I launched my favorite thing about working for yourself is yeah, exactly that's why I launched sweatpants and so on, because I wear them all the time.
Speaker 1:But you know I have such a, you know there's range in in my character, in a sense like I have days where I feel you know I want to. You know there's range in my character in a sense, like I have days where I feel, you know I want to dress up and there's days when I want to dress down and so on. So you know I don't want to be restricted. Oh, I'm on camera today, so I need to dress down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely yeah. I mean, I'm such a fan of like. In my first job, my first corporate PR job I had to basically wear a suit every day and heels every day, so for like two years. So I hated that. So this is yeah. Having the freedom to decide what you wear is brilliant.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, so I suppose that's why you decided to work for yourself. You wanted to dress down, yeah. That's just the number number one reason before we get into the reason why you started your own um, your own business, I have a very weird question and this is like this is my own, you know, thinking, just thinking out loud were your parents um stringent with you growing up? With in what sense, as in with your education, with how you conduct yourself in general? Were there stringent parents?
Speaker 2:yeah, they were quite strict. Yeah, so when we came to to do a levels, I remember I just wanted to do, I wanted to do dance and fashion and all of the like fun, creative subjects and um, my parents were like, no, you should definitely do. Um, I think I ended up doing like biology, psychology, english literature, which is kind of, you know, studious without being too, um, like creative, I guess. Um, and yeah, I kind of, I think at my A levels I got kind of B's and C's and they were really disappointed because, um, they knew that I was capable of getting my A's and things which I definitely wasn't at that time, like maybe if none of the distractions that had existed, um, but yeah, they were, they were quite, quite strict in that way.
Speaker 1:The reason why I'm asking is and I was curious, because I have a couple of friends that have parents that are teachers, either one of them or both of them. I don't think I've ever heard of someone that doesn't have a teacher, parents that are teachers, that weren't a level of strictness and, uh, stringent with their, with their children and, um, very, you know you have to be be like this, um, you know, be careful when you go out, um, be back home by this time, and quite, quite stringent parents. So it seems like there is a pattern there. I don't know if it's related to being teachers and teaching kids?
Speaker 2:no, I've never thought about that.
Speaker 1:My dad was a p teacher, so he was very relaxed right okay, but my mom was a primary school teacher and, yeah, she was not so relaxed I remember when I was, when I was a kid, when I was a kid, when I was a teenager, and I had friends that had teachers like their mom was a teacher in school, in our school. And I knew them and I knew that they were like the. You know you have to stay away from that teacher because they're evil. And. I used to visit them at their home and I'd be like is your mom? Around. Scary mom. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, but what made you move from just regular publication, from publications from articles and so on in the writing um for magazines to pr? What was what got you excited about that? Um or not necessarily excited, but what was the story there?
Speaker 2:yeah, so, um, pr is kind of is very closely related to journalism, so I kind of saw it as a bit of a? Um kind of step sideways. And also there is a lot more. I don't know why this is, but there's so much more money in PR than there is journalism, um, even though you know we can't have one without the other, um, and you know journalists are obviously really talented people as well doing you know all of the features that that PRs are so desperate for, um, so, yeah, so I found a job, um in luxury travel PR um in London and applied for that and got it um, and that was amazing because I was just kind of, you know, living in London for the first time.
Speaker 2:I was going to all of these fancy hotels, meeting all of these journalists, um, and yeah, kind of like really immersed in the corporate PR world, which is not one I'd want to stay in forever because it was quite stressful, um, but I think, like I'm just such a big fan of of trying out as many different things as you can in life to get as many different experiences as you can, um, and I think the worst thing that you can do is stay still and not do anything um. So yeah, I'm really glad I had that time in my suit what was, what was stressful being in your suit?
Speaker 2:um. So going into board meetings where I was, I was the only kind of young woman, um, and kind of um, you know, as a 22, 23 year old woman, um, amongst kind of lots of older men that were like in their 50s, um, kind of that was a bit of a baptism of fire of kind of. You know, speaking in meetings and things like that, presenting to clients was stressful, and in PR agency life as well, you're always kind of, you know, fighting to keep those clients as well and you know, hoping that no one else poaches them. And you know, pr agencies are notoriously really pressured environments, um, and even, you know, later, when I went on to work in-house for a company, a big hospitality company, um, that was again very, very pressured environment as well.
Speaker 1:um had some horrible bosses where's the pressure coming from in in corporate PR world? What's causing, what are the sources of those pressure moments? Because I've worked in a lot of pressure environments but I worked in environments where pressure was organic because of ABC kind of dependencies and things that are were of urgency and this, and that I also worked in environments where there was there was kind of like fake pressure, virtual pressure, like just manufactured pressure, because you know, people just wanted to leadership, just wanted to push their employees as to to the maximum and, you know, get the most profits for in the least of time. No specific reason, just because they wanted more money so like manufactured pressure.
Speaker 1:So I I'm curious in pr and in the corporate world. Where was that pressure coming from? Why was it pressure?
Speaker 2:So it depends on the client, because some clients kind of trust the process and understand that PR does take, you know, months, if not years, to work really well and it's a process of building relationships with the media. So that's never going to be something that's kind of instant. And if you get a client who understands that and is kind of trust, trusts you, and then that's great. But then other times you'll get a client that's, you know, has maybe a business that's not doing anything very interesting and they're kind of demanding like why am I not on the front page of the times today and they're not willing to kind of work with you to um generate, generate new stories? Because that's um.
Speaker 2:Something I think not many people know is that you can actually generate new stories for your business if there's not that many interesting things happening. You can create your own surveys, you can put on your own events, you can do partnerships and there's lots of different ways of actually generating your own news. Um. But yeah, so it depends, it depended on the client and. But then pr is also quite um a stressful job to work in as well, because you can't actually control um if the journalist write about your client or not at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:Um, obviously you can use all of your skills to to make it the most likely that it's going to be and to make the client the most attractive to the journalists, but you can't hold a gun to their head and say, um, you know, you must write this article now, um, and I've had so many times where, you know, I've had a journalist from you know, the Times or the Guardian, that's interviewed a client of mine and then they've just, you know, decided not to write the feature or their editors decided to go with something else for that day, um, or there's been a big news story that's kind of um meant that this other news story is not relevant anymore, and when that happens, um, it's, yeah, it's, it's horrible, but then do you get told off by by the client in in a sense?
Speaker 1:was it like, oh, you did, you didn't. You promised me this and look we, we lost it you didn't you didn't do. You didn't do enough to to preserve that story. Do you get those kind of remarks?
Speaker 2:I don't think they even dig that deep. I think they just think, like you're the pr person, you should be able to make this happen. Um, and you know as much as that is my job.
Speaker 1:That's just not the reality sometimes yeah um so when you were working you mentioned you were in these rooms. You were young, 20 something. Um, in rooms full of old dudes, yeah, as you usually find yourself in right in the corporate world. Um, why was that? Was it because, I mean, were the? Were people kind of like your peers, uh in and basically working in pr as well? You were working for this um, bigger pr agency um, and? Were pr managers and agents as well, or was this customers?
Speaker 2:um, so this was clients and customers, so I would say, I think, something like 70 or 80 percent of pr people are women.
Speaker 1:Um okay that's what I was asking because you know, I didn't want it to, to make the assumption, but most of the pr, people, pr, pr for the people, pr, people that I know are women.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. I don't know why that is actually. It's quite interesting, isn't it? No, so this was mostly like the owners of big companies or hotels. Yeah, the owners of different companies that I was working for.
Speaker 1:How were you treated?
Speaker 2:I was treated, you were you treated. I was. You're 20, you're very, very young, right? Yeah, um, for the most part, really really good. Um, I had, uh, my boss was very old school and she, she used to say, like, make sure you keep your suit jacket on and cover up your tattoos so you don't put off, um, you know, so you don't put off the people in, um, the managers of the hotels, um, so that was quite funny. And then sometimes in other big meetings she'd just say, like let me do the, do the talking and um, so I just sit there and just not say anything and feel a bit weird about it.
Speaker 1:So, when you were working with customers, how was that relationship? And I'm going to be honest with you, I'm fishing here. The reason why I'm fishing is because I've been in the corporate world. I've been in the corporate world. I am not a woman in my 20s, but I know plenty of them and a lot of them had pretty horrendous experiences where you know, and I call them horrendous because even even the mildest, uh subliminal kind of like interaction, so even the mildest interaction, that kind of like conveys very subliminally misogyny.
Speaker 1:To me that's extremely disgusting um and I've seen that quite a lot in this dynamic of of corporate world where there's someone senior that's in their 40s, 50s and they're um, they're dealing with, working with um, manage, let's say, someone a young woman that's in her, in their 20s and so on, and that kind of like sense of authority and you know, you know nothing and this and that. So that's what I'm asking, because you know, usually when, when I hear that that you know you had to work with a lot of people in the corporate world older and I'm not saying that not everyone's evil or bad or anything like that and honestly a lot of people that I met that had have have been a bit misogynistic towards um or treating someone a bit different. They didn't even realize that they were doing it yeah, it was just like this.
Speaker 1:It's unconscious growing up in this, um, male dominated industry and working with dudes all the time and doing things that they don't even realize that they do, or talking in a certain way, they don't even realize that they do it. So that's why I was asking sorry for digging here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that it's a really good um. It's a really interesting subject. I think I was in a meeting one day with um. This was in another job, um, where I had a creative team that was um, both men and women, and one of my female colleagues, secretly um, did this timer test of um timing, how long each person spoke in the meeting and how much kind of airtime each person had um, and I think she did this for like five meetings or something um and found that it was men talking for um like 80 of each meeting. Um so and then she brought that to hr and as a company, we really tried to um to work that out um.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's definitely, definitely still a problem, even in companies that think they're progressive, like I think, as you said, people don't even realize that they're doing it sometimes, um, but you know, when you're in a meeting, if you can, if you're a man, if you can just think, oh, you know, there's. There's a woman that's sitting next to me and she hasn't had much um airtime this, this meeting. I'm gonna actually let her speak, like I think that would be an amazing thing for now you're watching to.
Speaker 1:Now you're making me feel bad because I feel that when we interact, because of our relationship, I talk a lot I mean you're my client, it's a bit different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, true um, no, but I've, you know, I've been there, I've been there, done that, and the thing is, I'm a very chatty person and I used to also feel um what like what's it called feel, feel silent time right, oh yeah as in, like, if there was silence I would just talk just to fill that silence, and I think it took me a long time to understand that it's okay to have moments of, you know, break of silence and so on, especially when you're working with people that, um, are not very hoppy into conversation and you need to give that space of thinking and replies and kind of like allowing that some people get a lot more comfortable when they're silenced and they can start talking, right. Yeah, so I had to learn the hard way that that is a thing and I shouldn't be just filling this the the silence, because if I do, then someone that's a bit more refrained from intervening or stopping you or talking over you, because there's a lot of people that don't do that they just continue to be silent.
Speaker 2:They could just be waiting for their moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely so would you say that you've had the overall positive experience in the corporate world?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think so, yeah, I think um you closed your eyes yeah, I mean to be honest, like I probably had a better experience in the corporate world than I did in working. I worked in pr for the nightlife and hospitality industry, um, and I think I probably encountered more difficult bosses.
Speaker 1:You shouldn't be, you shouldn't hold yourself back. Okay, speak your mind. I'm sure people that were difficult bosses aren't watching misfit founders yeah, I would say that was definitely a trickier industry to work in than the corporate world in some ways it's a very controversial bit but and I think I don't think I have the right to talk about the, to talk about the servicing gourmet industry and all of this, but most of my friends are from working in those kind of environments and the stories that I hear yeah, I mean the nature of working in a bar, or I used to work for a group of nightclubs and music venues, which was amazing.
Speaker 2:It was such a fun job. But the statistics of anyone working in the music industry or the hospitality industry, I think there's a much higher rate of like substance abuse, a much higher rate of mental health issues abuse, a much higher rate of mental health issues just because you're around the um, you know that environment of, of drinking and and and things so easily.
Speaker 1:um, so yeah, you do encounter some, some characters there, definitely I think it's that and I think it's also like there's um, it's there's not that much schooling in management, right, there's a lot of people that basically get promoted from, let's say, bartending or waitering or this or that, into managing the joint or managing the team or the shift or this or that and working directly with the main manager and so on, and more often than not and again I'm not from this industry, I'm just talking from most of my friends working in this industry- and what I hear is that most of the time that preparation into managing very little to almost none yeah
Speaker 1:so then you're coming without knowing how to work with people, not knowing how to communicate, how to manage, how to structure you know potentially work, how to deal with challenges, with people, and most of the reason why most of my friends are exhausted on working in in this industry is because of man, crappy, shitty managers that you know do dodgy things of oh this is my friend, I'm gonna promote, I'm gonna give them more shifts and uh well, I don't like you, so I'm gonna make your life a living hell working here, and so on.
Speaker 1:So it's like this kind of like not being trained into managing people and running a venue or things like that that's causing that of course there's a lot, probably a lot, of really good places that train their um, their people, really well, but most of my friends don't work in those places.
Speaker 2:They work in the most touchy places where they're telling me horror stories about their managers, about their colleagues, and I'm like Jesus well, I think managing people in itself is is such a hard skill, and it's just one of those many things as well, that when you start to run your own business, um that you're like, oh okay, this is another one of the like 10 million hats that I have to wear now oh yeah um and yeah, so yeah, I can see why that happens did you have to manage people when you were doing the pr, so what was?
Speaker 1:so tell me what was your entry, because I don't know the sorry the, the pr kind of like roles and responsibilities. So what was your entry level job in pr and what was the um, the final job that you had role responsibilities before moving into having your own agency?
Speaker 2:so, yeah, there's, there's lots of different kind of sections that you can work in in pr and kind of move up the ranks um. So I started out as pr assistant, um, working in the corporate um industry and then, uh, pr executive and then pr manager, um, and then you start to deal with um, all of the client facing meetings, and manage other team members as well and kind of train them, which is, yeah, is challenging I think. And then I moved to be head of PR at the hospitality group where it was kind of me just overseeing all of the PR strategy um and working with, with a team um. And then that's where I got. After five years working there I was made redundant. So that's where my PR journey, working for other people, kind of ended oh really, what?
Speaker 1:why? Why was that what happened there?
Speaker 2:um. So it was at the beginning of the pandemic, um and um. I think I was just too expensive for the company because you know, obviously when you work for a company, every couple of years you have to get a pay rise yeah, um, you have to. You want it we want to get a favorite while you have to get it? No, you have to, but um, I don't, is there?
Speaker 1:no, speaking like a true entrepreneur, I have to be.
Speaker 2:Give people oh my god, it's so nice not having to beg for a pay rise now, like, oh my god. I think that's one of the my favorite things again about working for yourself is, as you know, the sky is the limit, you know, when it comes to making money for yourself. Obviously, like you know, the sky's the limit, you know, when it comes to making money for yourself, obviously, like, not, that's not going to be like that all the time.
Speaker 2:But at least you've got that potential. Um sorry, I've really diverged from your question so you were you.
Speaker 1:You were made redundant. Um, it was uh when the pandemic was starting and you were telling me what happened there. With what? Oh, because you were expensive, um but, what did they? Did they downsize the pr team because you were the head of pr, so you had. How many people were you managing?
Speaker 2:so I was man I had, we had a creative team assistant, um, and then we had um an events person, um music bookers, um. So I was kind of managed. I wasn't really managing the team, but I was kind of sitting within the team and advising kind of everyone on what the PR strategy should be within the business yeah, um.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think they ended up, even though in the contract they weren't allowed to do it. I think they ended up hiring someone um a lot more junior for the same role and kind of, yeah, starting, starting on my, or what would have been my starting salary, again, um, did that?
Speaker 1:uh, did you follow the company afterwards? We're not going to give any names and so on, but did you follow the company afterwards? How did they do with pr?
Speaker 2:um after getting rid of their expensive uh professional yeah, not very well at all, actually like um, because I still had friends that worked there and they were in the creative meetings and the. The bosses were kind of moaning about the, the lack of of pr that they got um, so that was really nice for me wait a minute.
Speaker 1:So you mean to tell me that paying extra money for senior people actually is?
Speaker 2:worth it oh my goodness, what's the saying? You get what you pay for. I just yeah, I think that's so true.
Speaker 1:Um so that was okay. So that was when? What? What year was the 2020, 2021? When was?
Speaker 2:it um. When did the pandemic start? 2020, yeah, and I think that was on the horizon as well.
Speaker 1:So I guess, like all hospitality companies at that time, were just freaking out and getting rid of any expensive um yeah part of their business that they could it was such a hit in, especially in the hospitality industry, like so many places closed down, fired everyone except for the founder and another person, and just went into hibernation until the whole thing ordeal was, um was done, yeah, so well. I mean, I feel that you know um, being let go can can be a can be a burden on one, and and, and you could see it as a stigma on yourself, like, oh, it wasn't good enough, I was, I was fired, I was, I was let go yeah but I think, amongst the situations of being let go, um, downsizing, but then probably the most okay big let go is the pandemic like that.
Speaker 1:That's like okay, well, there's absolutely no other way than to cut down on costs because we're not making money as the kind of like the hospitality industry I know I always call it gourmet industry when it's like no, that's just restaurants, isn't it? Yeah, that's just food.
Speaker 2:Hospitality is everything yeah, um yeah, it was not a nice time. I think anyone that's been made redundant will will kind of recognize those feelings of like, oh, is it some?
Speaker 2:is it because I'm not good enough, is it you know you just yeah, basically just think you've not been good enough um and that's horrible, but I have to say that it really was one of the best things that has that's ever happened to me, because I would never have I don't know if never, but I don't know if I would have ever made the jump to working for myself if I hadn't been made redundant at that time really so you weren't.
Speaker 1:You weren't like, oh, one day I'm gonna have my business. You were quite comfortable with being a professional and working in the yeah.
Speaker 2:So I had, I did. Um, I had a few friends kind of come to me and say like, oh, would you help me with some PR? Which I did, I think, a few freelance projects on the side for them. And in the back of my mind I think I was like, oh, do you know what? Like you know, with the amount of word of mouth people have coming to me, I could just I could do this, this myself. But I think the thought of actually, you know, having to make my own money rather than having a paycheck every month, that was really scary. So I don't, I think I don't know if I would have ever done it, or it would have been years and years before I had made the jump.
Speaker 1:Definitely so you are an employee at heart. We get that no how dare you um? Uh right, no, I'm joking, but so you've never like you were happy and, to be honest, you know that I've. It's not unfamiliar, I've heard this before where people are like oh, I was happy with my professional career path and so on.
Speaker 1:It just I just bumped into this and then that radically changed who I identify, as I identify as a rather than working for um a company and living the good nine to five life to to the tumultuous uh entrepreneur journey and so on. Was it being uh, was it being let go the sole catalyst of you wanting to do this on your own, or was there some other factors at play?
Speaker 2:I think, around the time um lots of my friends were starting their own businesses as well my close friends.
Speaker 2:Okay, bad influence, I see um, and I think I think you kind of you get to a place in your career if you work for other people, when you know you've got that dream job and you've got the jobs that you've always tried so hard to get. And then you kind of get to a point and maybe you're late 20s and you kind of think, oh, is this? It? Like I'm a bit unfulfilled and I'm a bit um bit bored. Um, so, and I think a lot of my friends kind of got to that point at the same time um, and I was quite lucky that, yeah, lots of my really close friends are really entrepreneurial as well like, one of them owns an architecture practice, one of them owns a mobile bar business. Um, one of them's a designer.
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, lots of different businesses and they inspired you, yeah, so that contributed to, but it was also the let being, let go, yeah, and you're like and having that space and time to think yeah, definitely, and having that space and time to think about like what I could do, um, and yeah, I think definitely being inspired by other, by other friends that were doing similar things and were you in London back then or did you?
Speaker 1:were you already um in Brighton, moved to?
Speaker 2:Brighton um. So I was in London over the pandemic um the worst place to be yeah, stuck in a house share with six other people and my ex really like six other people like you were.
Speaker 1:You were the extreme, worst place to be.
Speaker 2:I know most people were like lonely and I was like, get me away from these people, like I saw way too much of them. Um, no, um, they were lovely, but yeah. So I moved down to Brighton at the end of lockdown how many years ago? A couple of years ago now. But, yeah, I'm so happy to be back here. It's my hometown, so, yeah, I love it here.
Speaker 1:What made you move back here?
Speaker 2:So I had a big relationship breakup and also lots of my friends as well were moving out of London at the time and I just I always knew that I'd move back to Brighton one day. And you know, when you've not got a job in London and you don't have like, lots of your friends are leaving as well, then you're kind of like, what am I doing here? I just want to be somewhere that's a bit more peaceful and you know, living by the sea is just so amazing and good for the soul.
Speaker 1:It's crazy how you know, and I was talking to someone the other day about it, to someone the other day about it uh, I've, I feel that I've grew, grew up as a professional in this, um in, in the previous era of work, commuting, working in london, being a professional, taking the, the underground, going to work, the rat race yeah right, uh, and since the pandemic, so much has changed.
Speaker 1:You know there's a lot of companies in in london and other places that's they're kind of like trying to force their employees now to go go back to butts in seats and and stuff yeah um, but I think that we're a bit past that. Like in the early days of the pandemic and so on, I was missing a bit of human interaction, the being in the office working with your colleagues, because I've been an office rat right.
Speaker 1:I was there early morning and there leaving the last one to leave, to close the lights and so on, and all of the founders of the company that I worked before that can testify to that.
Speaker 1:I was, like always in the office yeah but I also, I think at one point I got smart enough and I was like okay, what does it cost me to commute, uh, to work? Okay, well, can I, can I rent next door to my work? Well, yeah, actually from the cost of the commute and this, and that in my time I'll put a bit more money and and work next door to the office where I so, so it was just across the street from from where I was um living, which was great because it just like took the stress of the commuting away but
Speaker 1:honestly, in the early days of the pandemic I was, I was having calls with people we were chatting about, you know, working remote, all of this trend, and I and I was telling them, you know, yeah, I like working remote, but I also miss being in the office and working in the office. Now it feels such a distant, it feels like a different era, it feels like you know the time when you know we were the previous age of, of commuting and working in the office and so on um, and it was kind of before.
Speaker 2:I feel like one good thing that came out of the pandemic as well is that employers kind of realized, um, that they need to value self-care for their employees as well. Because, yeah, I was the same. I was in offices that you know people would look at you, look funny, if you left before like 7 pm, and that's not healthy, oh yeah 100 percent.
Speaker 1:Um, I agree with that, and it I think it also takes takes a toll if you're stressed all the time about work, um, and just being in a good light with with your employer and your colleagues, and so on. You always have to be super presentable and super formal and just like don't leave, oh, I'm going for a lunch break. Ah, it's been, it's been 50 minutes, I need to head back, and so on.
Speaker 1:Like that is very stressful we don't realize because we grew up in this environment of work and very strict rules, control, controlling harnesses right around your employees and so on like school is kind of a segue for yeah, it is, yeah, you're, you're, and you kind of segue into that and you find it normal but, now, after working remote, um, having my own company for a while, working for the acquiring company, which again very flexible working environment, and so on, you realize, damn, that feels very rigid and stressful in a sense and I don't actually think it's conducive to producing your best work either.
Speaker 2:Um, because you know everyone has ebbs and flows of when they feel they're most creative and when they don't. Um, and when you're self-employed you can really lean into that and you know work till midnight one night if you're really feeling it um, and other days you just might know that you just won't produce good work. So you know, if you were employed by someone else, you'd be having to go in and like try um and probably fail to do good work, but what you really should be doing is resting, um.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think that's a massive benefit of being self-employed as well when do you feel the most creative, so the most productive? Um. So, being a woman, I feel I definitely like to try and plan my work around my cycle, if I can, um, because around the time of my period I will not feel, I'll just feel tired and like. There's this book that I've read called period power, okay, which um basically tells you that there's certain times in your cycle that you're going to be better at working than others.
Speaker 1:So interesting yeah, so is that any? Is it related strictly to the uh mood and stress that you get when, when you're on your period, or are there any other secret superpowers that come with with with the period period that I don't know about? Why would I?
Speaker 2:so, yeah, it's all to do with, um, your hormones and how they're kind of swinging and and and balancing out um. So, basically, just after you come off your period, your hormones will balance out and you'll feel a lot calmer and you'll be able to lift more weights at the gym, you'll be able to just feel more clear-headed to do things. So like, for example, I purposely booked this podcast interview on my power window, um, because I knew that that would be the give me the best chance of, you know, feeling good, um. So, yeah, that's one way that I can feel really creative and good in business, um. And another way is it's really cliche, but, like after you've been on holiday or had a complete break from the business, I just find that I get kind of raring to go with getting back to work and it really does kind of like really fill your cup up to take some time off.
Speaker 1:How long does that last? I think it's Because everyone has their own, like you know and I'm going to give Nikki away here, she might ask me to cut this out, but she goes on. She gets super depleted and and and exhausted um, like you know, everyone does after working for a longer period of time, and then she goes for two, three weeks holiday. She's like, yes, I'm so revigorated, I love work, and that lasts one week yeah, no, do you know?
Speaker 2:what I was gonna say about one week as well, and then it becomes a distant memory and you're like I'm gonna book the next holiday, yeah getting back to it, but it's a slow process of you know um declining back into stress isn't it um, but yeah, definitely, um, you know, giving your brain a rest from social media and from um outside influences and, um, kind of coming back to your why, um, that always makes me feel a lot more creative oh yeah, I feel that if you, if you don't lose yourself with the challenges of I mean, it's very easy to lose yourself.
Speaker 1:So I wouldn't say if you don't lose yourself, it's impossible not to lose yourself and have not have days where you just like exhausted and in the bread of it, the breadth of it, just dealing with all of the challenges of your business and this and that, and completely forget. You know why you're even doing that and why you started the motivation, the seed of it, and you know you can't every single day pick yourself up and remind yourself because some of these gurus that what they say when you feel down, just remember what you're doing it and do that every single day, and every single day is going to be a good day. That's not.
Speaker 2:This is some days you just know we're not going to be a good day and you just have to like yeah and go with it some days you just want to be miserable.
Speaker 1:Right, and just be miserable that day, as long as you can always come back and not fully forget. Get amnesia around. What is it that you're doing and why are you doing it? If that doesn't happen, then you're okay because you can. You can always refer back and that kind of like replenishes you and gives you the boost of hey, I'm doing this because these reasons definitely my business coach, um.
Speaker 2:One of the exercises that I had to do with her was writing down I can't remember what she called it, I think it was like a power list or something like that um of all of the things that I've done in my career that I'm the most proud of, um, and then if you've ever got a day where you're feeling down, you can look back at that list and remind yourself of you know how much experience you've got and and what you've done, and yeah, yeah but it doesn't always work no right not every single day will work there.
Speaker 1:You have days where, where you like, looking at that list, you're like I don't give a fuck, yeah like take this away. I'm just, I'm just not feeling it today and that's perfectly okay you don't like.
Speaker 1:You know, because I don't want people to think. You have a day where you're super miserable and stressed and you feel like doubting yourself and you look at that list, you know, like I don't feel anything, I'm pissed off and then think, oh, there's something wrong with me, then it means I lost the passion. No, it is normal to have days where you don't care about the whys and the, the motivations and so on. You just want to finish that day and wake up the next day a bit better, and that's perfectly fine. Um, and yeah, there will also be days when you're a bit um, cloudy and so on, where you need that list and it empowers you and makes you feel, feel better, but it's not every single day no, definitely I think in entrepreneurship.
Speaker 2:I think people say that you have some of you can have your best possible day and then have your worst possible day the day after, and then, yeah, it really is such a roller coaster, do? You can then have your worst possible day the day after and then, yeah, it really is such a roller coaster do you, can you remember your worst possible day since you started pr for the people and can you talk about?
Speaker 2:that's an important question. Yeah, yeah, so um, yeah, but in my mind I'm like there's two possible ones. So, um, probably the the day that I got a letter with someone trying to sue me, um it was quite scary and um, how I think I was quite new into the business as well at that time.
Speaker 2:Um, and it was also like during the pandemic, when everything was heightened as well because it was, you know, everyone was just online and you didn't have that many other distractions, so I, my whole personality and life just was my business, and it wasn't very healthy. Um, and yeah, so I was like, oh, my god, this is the end of my business, that's terrifying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, when you say, oh, I've lost a customer, or, um, this person hang up on me and I didn't transform that lead into okay. But to get suit, to get into legal challenges when you're early on your business, that is one of the most scariest things ever. That I think. If, if there's one thing amongst others that could make you call it quits, would be that just the, the, the being sued by someone yeah, um so what?
Speaker 2:happened. So luckily I knew I was in the right with it. So I hired um a lawyer and she basically kind of wrote letters back and forwards with the other person's lawyer until it was resolved in our favor. So that was OK, but still spent kind of hundreds of pounds which at the time I really didn't have on the lawyer, on the lawyer um and my business coach at the time. Um said to me when I told her I think I called her in tears about it because it was really horrible as well, like the other people that were trying to sue us were posting things about my business on social media and like yeah, it was just really like nasty that is the last.
Speaker 1:The least thing that you should be doing when you're in a litigious dispute is basically try to trash talk people on social media. That's outrageous to me. If you're trying to sue someone, or you're reaching out and trying to get into litigation and so on, the last thing you would do is post about it on social media yeah, yeah, um.
Speaker 2:And my business coach at the time, um, said to me oh you've, you've not been in business unless you've been sued. I've been sued loads of times I haven't been sued once. I hope I never am oh, okay, well that that made me feel so much better when she said that to me and she's lying to you um, do you not know anyone that's been like not actually sued, but had like letters?
Speaker 1:well, I mean I there's one thing of being sued for something infringement and so on um never been threatened to be sued. Um, we did. Had our brands, all of our apps, all of our products. We trademark, trademark the brands, and one of our apps was called octo, which is one of the most common. You would not believe how many companies, tech companies, are called octo out there. You know you have octopus, energy and so on, like there's so many.
Speaker 1:And we had a couple that saying, oh, you know you can, can you change your definition of what you work on so that it doesn't overlap? And we did. Had one company I'm not going to give names where our logo looked like theirs and that and. But they didn't threaten to sue. They, they reached out and and said, hey, you know, your logo looks very close to ours, although it wasn't intentional and this is a big, big company and said um would be great to if you can change, we can work to get their own changing, maybe changing your logo to not be so, um, familiar, because we don't want to confuse customer. But they were like quite gracious about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that sounds great. I at the time I was just like this was another female owned business and I was just so like shocked that they wouldn't come to me and just try and speak to me about their issue first yeah um. So yeah, that was a really like, um, really stressful time, but I think, I think people, people get advised wrong, wrongfully, I.
Speaker 1:I think when you're a big organization, that also because this organization, this company had, like, has a really good reputation, like their brand is really loved by developers and this, and that now I'm giving away too much um but I think they have really good advice on how to deal with these situations, because when you're a big brand, there's more likely that you're gonna have people that either blatantly try to copy you or just accidentally make something that looks very similar to something that's trademarked, like yours so and the last thing you want is for you to be, you know, very aggressive towards that and risk basically getting into a bad reputation or bad light, because you know that person might be sharing a lot of the conversation or what happened to the public.
Speaker 1:And then you're like, oh, look at this big brand that pretends to be all nice and warm and fuzzy and look at them how aggressive they are and so on.
Speaker 1:So they're, but again, you have to be advised accordingly and you know I have friends that are lawyers and I work with lawyers and legal advisors great people but sometimes they can be a bit too aggressive with how they advise you to proceed with things. And you know, maybe that person that was looking to sue you maybe they're not a terrible person or a bad person or so, but maybe they had, um, you know someone that advised them the wrong way yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I've never spoken to them so I would not know. I wanted to reach out to them after the, the you know, after the whole thing and kind of just you know, talk about it, but, um, I was advised not to do that, so so I didn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, true, maybe it's for the best. So what happened afterwards? How did that made you feel when you were dealing with that, and how long into your business was this?
Speaker 2:So I think this was. It's hard to remember now. Lockdown days will kind of blur into one, but I think it was around six months into launching the business um and so this. So PR for the people started out as um, a membership subscription platform, um, teaching people how to do their own PR. So it started out as uh 50 pounds a month, um, and you get access to, like press contacts and daily emails with press opportunities and um, uh, an online course and lots of different things. But you still have that um. So I kind of I have that, but not the same version. So I've just relaunched a similar version, but a much pared down version, which is just the daily emails with press opportunities, um why is that?
Speaker 1:was it too much to to deal with so?
Speaker 2:I found that the the old model where I was hosting lots of zoom calls for um founders to come to and chat with journalists and things. Um, it was really good and you know I had 200 members all signed up at one time, um. But then I felt I feel like after the pandemic finished, people got a bit zoomed out and a bit tired of being online all the time and a bit tired of kind of coming to group zoom workshops and things. So so I would be like booking sometimes, you know, a journalist from Cosmopolitan to come and chat to my members and no one would show up. And I know during the pandemic there was a spate of lots of online memberships for businesses opening and then doing really, really well, and mine was one of them, um, and then quite a few of them pretty much all of them that I know have closed now. Um, because I think I just think that that model of coming to a zoom call every week people just don't really want that anymore.
Speaker 2:It's too much um of a commitment when you're already a really busy business owner yeah, um, I've seen that with misfit founders community as well, for sure, yeah, definitely, yeah, I had like even monthly community calls and so on, and people just don't show up because you know they have other priorities yeah, and they tell, and I did so many customer feedback surveys and they were all like no, we really want them, we love them, but then just I would be sitting there yeah um, you know, with no one coming to the call sometimes, how depressing is that. I had, I had that that's.
Speaker 1:That was my tipping point. I was doing the, the weekly, the monthly um community calls and you know I've started and I've done. I've done it a couple, a couple of times, maybe four months or something, and on the fourth month no one in the college is me. I felt so depressed yeah, like never again yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I had a few times I had I kind of kept on trying with that for a while and then I was like you know what, maybe it's just time to try a different way of helping people to do their own PR, um.
Speaker 2:So that's when I went more into one-to-one coaching with founders, um, and then, because I still want to try and help people who are just, you know, at the beginning of their journey or have really low budgets, um, I also do a newsletter, which is 10 pounds a month, um, and you get a newsletter every day with press opportunities. So, um, that's kind of what I'm doing in that area now and I think it's really manageable and easy for people to actually work with in action. So I think that's working really well. And it's really funny because for the past few months I had, I've had so many emails from people that were part of the membership saying, oh, would you be able to start just send me those daily emails, because they were really good and I really loved them and it took me so long to twig that. That's actually just the part of the membership that people want now. Um, unless they can, you know, they can afford the, the one-to-one coaching or for me to do, or they're in the position for me to do the pr for their business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, but yeah, that's um kind of the evolution of of the membership yeah, so, um, sorry, we, I got us distracted from the um, from the topic, because I think what, what I was um, what I was interested in was basically how long into your business? Uh, did this whole ordeal with the lawsuit?
Speaker 2:oh, yeah, sorry, really off track there um, so I think it was about six months in.
Speaker 2:Six months and I, before I started the business, took out a loan for six grand to fund like, building the website platform and some marketing, and I can't even remember what else I spent that on now. But I've only just finished paying that back. Um, and at the time I was so terrified because I was like I've just spent, I've just got a loan for six grand. If I, if my business now shuts down, how am I ever going to pay that back? I don't have a job. Um, obviously it was the pandemic as well, so I was just, yeah, full-on panic at the time.
Speaker 1:Jesus, I can imagine that, and you're also back in Brighton at that point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I went back to live with my mum for a little bit, and that's that's double scary.
Speaker 1:I would say why? Because you know we, we all got used to London being the, you know the hub where you get all the jobs and I can only imagine, you know, you taking a loan out, being sued, thinking like I'm gonna have to close down. Oh, but hold on, I'm not even in London anymore, to you know to be living there and having job opportunities there. I'm in Brighton, where the market and the landscape is a bit different, and so on. That must have been scary yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:But yeah, luckily I knew I was in the right and I had a good lawyer, so it all worked out fine yeah, awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm glad it did, because otherwise, you know, I wouldn't be having you to help me with. Miss Mithun. I'm being very egocentric here. Why PR for the people? Why name it PR for the people?
Speaker 2:so it's always kind of sounded like a bit of a protest to me, because so when I, when I got made redundant, I had the chance to kind of sit and think about the PR industry and kind of what I wanted to do, and I noticed that loads of the brands I've worked with were only people that had loads of money or loads of budget to kind of get those PR agencies.
Speaker 1:It's always been to me like this oh, if you get to the point where you can afford PR, you made it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's so backwards because the stories that need telling are often of people that don't have that budget behind them or people that are kind of marginalised by society. So I really wanted to create a service that would help more people get featured in the media, um, and kind of diversify the voices that we hear from in the media as well, because I think, yeah, so many people just think like, oh, I could never do pr because I can't, I'm not big enough or I can't afford it. But I want people to know that you can, you can do your own pr easily.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's a really good name. It stuck with me so, um, so quickly, pr for the people and it sounds like you have a really um awesome mission with it and it sounds like you're achieving that with the, you know, the newsletter and the coaching stuff and and such um. You know, as with everything, doing a job for someone will cost money, because you know, your time costs money so whether you invest two hours or five hours and so on, things will will cost money.
Speaker 1:So, um, it is what it is, but just being able to also help through other means I think, that's, that's very valuable yeah and important yeah, definitely I'm, I.
Speaker 2:There's so much value in hiring a professional, obviously, um, but so many people just aren't in that position, um. So, yeah, I just want people to know that there is another way as well and you don't have to go through a pr agency. Like journalists actually love speaking to business owners and and founders directly, because it's kind of you know, that authentic relationship what was the biggest win for you so far as a founder In this very short period of founding?
Speaker 1:You started your company in what you said, 2021? So like three years, three years yeah. So you've been a founder for three years. It shouldn't be that difficult to tell me what was the biggest win that you ever had in these three years, so I think getting featured in Forbes was Wait a minute, you've been featured in Forbes. Where's my future?
Speaker 2:in Forbes. It's coming, it's coming.
Speaker 1:Okay, tell me about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that was probably, that was obviously a massive highlight. So that was kind of an article about the work that we were doing in making the PR industry more inclusive and diverse, because, yeah, so many of the articles that you actually read in the news are placed by PR agencies and I don't think that many people you're telling me that my entire life was a lie so far. I don't think many people realize that Interesting yeah, so many trends and things come from PR agencies.
Speaker 1:So you're the puppeteers? Yeah, interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So how did that impact and affect your business, if any?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it had an amazing impact and I love talking about this because I think it's quite. It obviously like proves the um, the effects of pr. Um. So we had, um, we had a book published publisher from america reach out to us and ask if we wanted to write a book because they've read the article. Interesting. We had a tv producer reach out to us and we also had like loads of new potential clients as well. So, yeah, especially that, like the, the American-based book editor reaching out to us was just wild because she would never ever have come across us like normally. So I just think that you know, getting getting press coverage for your business just opens the door for so many more people to find out about you.
Speaker 1:Um sounds like partnerships um as um, a very probably the low-hanging fruit over there with pr so so, um, with pr, the low-hanging fruit of a reward is partnerships, as in, it sounds like partnerships are, um, the first thing that you get, when you know when, when you put yourself out there and so on yeah, probably for your business as well is useful. The reason why I kind of believe in PR and believe in you and what you do is that in our industry we had someone that had their product featured in tech crunch and I might have mentioned this and they got quite significant traffic and and installations and new customers from them. I'm like, oh, actually these work. I'm surprised because I also had friends that were like I tried pr, paid for pr. You know those that's not pr.
Speaker 2:If you pay for it, pay for for listicles or you know, just advertising just for um, how you call it?
Speaker 1:uh, automated linking in various publications that have zero traffic, and so on. Yeah, oh, it didn't work.
Speaker 2:Surprised yeah, I think, um, you can be lucky with those kind of um, those links that you get, where sometimes you just get the right publication at the right time and it really kind of skyrockets your audience, um, or like, for example, you know, if you get a tv feature that will that broadcast you to millions of people and that can completely change your business overnight. Like I was working with um, a dog friendly cafe, a dog cafe in Kensington about a year ago and they got on, got featured on BBC London, um, and obviously that's seen by millions of people so they were completely booked up at the weekends and yeah, it can really change your business overnight. But then also the other side of it is building up your reputation over time and you know people you know reading about you here and there and like suddenly you're kind of they're like oh, I've actually listened to him on a podcast and oh, I see he's doing an event here and oh, he's featured in this magazine and that kind of builds your, builds your reputation yeah, yeah it does.
Speaker 1:And it's also kind of like, I think, like with creating content and creating an audience and so on, it takes time for you to to see significant kind of like. I would say, yeah, you can have these hits like, oh, publication here and all of a sudden, overnight you're, you know you're celebrity or you're the best place to, um, to sell stuff, right, um, but it also takes time being this publication. People see you there, people see you there and building kind of like a profile online. At least that's my impression of it yeah, it's like with anything, good it's unless you get me into Forbes, then I'll be famous like that so because,
Speaker 1:Our audience here at Misfit. Founders are aspiring founders, startup founders, very early on, type of entrepreneurs. Advice for founders out there that maybe are not thinking of doing PR because they have this concept that, well, pr is expensive and so on. What can they do to start building their brand reputation without costing, let's say, an arm and a leg of you know, let's say having to hire the most prestigious pr company in the country or something like that? What can they do to get started with very little to no cost?
Speaker 2:so, um, the first thing that you can do is look at a hashtag on twitter called journal requests and that is, um, basically, most journalists hang out on twitter and they will post when they're looking to feature someone in their articles. So if you just, yeah, so if you just search journal request on twitter, you will find lots of different, um, interesting call outs for different people. Um, and, yeah, that's, I use some of those in my, in my newsletter, um, and also like, find them in lots of different places as well, like, there's facebook groups and I get journalists coming to me directly with with opportunities and um, but, yeah, I would say, looking on twitter at that and you'll just see. Oh, hang on a minute, journalists are really looking for people every day to feature so I might as well be one of them yeah, you see, I have.
Speaker 1:I didn't knew that as either, and and I feel that more probably more people should know the fact that journalists are out, they reach out, um, and looking for for people as well, and it's not that like this super closed, tight-knit group, exclusive society that no one can go in interesting yeah, I mean, obviously it's very competitive because you know the world's on twitter and um, all of the pr agencies are on twitter.
Speaker 2:But you definitely I've had clients and you know people that I've worked with featured in the, like, the guardian, the telegraph, bbc, like people are always getting features. Um, actually, the metro article is from a journal request that you're going to be featured in.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm not going to give it away, okay, um, no, that's that. That is. You see, if you I think the idea is, if you're resourceful and, in a sense, have an interesting story and can position yourself and this is one of the things that I've said to so many people in the past, because this is how I've got the most benefit from partnerships and so on make yourself seen in the places where the people, in the places where the people that you want to be seen by exist I I think that stands true at any point yeah, right
Speaker 1:definitely it's not easy, but you know, with places like linton and so on, where you know we can have connections, you can post stuff and get seen and constantly posting and being active and so on and like starts ingraining a certain image of you in the audience or the partners or the prospects that you're um, you're looking to do that by having them in your network and seeing all of this stuff that you're generating and then eventually, once you know they're hot enough, warm enough of leads, you can convert a lot, a lot better definitely.
Speaker 2:I think I was saying to you earlier that, um, lots of people underestimate the power of micro pr opportunities and they kind of go straight for the. You know, I want to be featured in cosmo or forbes, um, but actually where their core customers are hanging out might not be Forbes or Cosmo, it might be local co-working spaces or it might be, you know, very niche podcasts in their industry, so that if you actually want to speak to your customers, you're better off researching where do your target customers consume their media and then trying to get featured there. It might not be your traditional magazines like, it might be newsletters, it might be, um, you know, radio shows. Um, yeah, it's kind of thinking outside the box as to to where you want to be featured yeah, true, I'm curious what's the end game here?
Speaker 2:is there even an end game for lucy from pr for the people oh for, in terms of business, I thought you meant for you as my client no, I, I wouldn't.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't discuss that um necessarily on podcast, unless people want to see that, in which we might just need to have a workshop, a public workshop and stuff but no, as in currently with PR for the people. Is this everything that you've ever envisioned and dreamed of in terms of owning a business? How does the future look like for you? Is this what it is, or do you have other aspirations that you're you started baking?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I think I'd always like more time to be able to create content, um, so I I sort of I do lots of interviews and tips about PR on my Instagram, but, um, I'd love the time to be able to do, you know, I'd love to be able to do a podcast where I interview different journalists and and media people, because the industry is changing all the time and so fast that you know it's yeah, it's like trying to keep up with it is is kind of tricky sometimes, and the only way is by actually speaking to the journalists that are, um, where they're writing for these publications. Um, I'm also in the process of launching a magazine as well, which, like my passion, is still writing and journalism. Um, so, yeah, that will be. The website should be finished quite soon.
Speaker 1:It's going to be called the dream magazine dream magazine yeah, interesting I was expecting power, the power of pr no, no.
Speaker 2:So I want it to be like a lifestyle magazine and um, because, yeah, independent media is kind of dying a bit at the moment. So I want so there's so many magazines that I've loved that have shut in the past kind of few years, so I really want to to start a platform where people can actually, you know, get published and um, and it's not kind of influenced by money or anything, it's not for profit, it's just a platform that people can come and read good articles interesting.
Speaker 2:I'm curious to see how you build that um I mean it's interesting because I have no way of making money from it at the moment. It's just purely um a creative outlet but start from that.
Speaker 1:I mean it's perfectly fine, like not everything needs to start from a, you know, rational business, um concept and so on. It can. It can be just like.
Speaker 2:I love this, I love talking about this, starting it and later down the road, I always you know, maybe I'm naive, but I think that starting from a place of passion will always um end up in good places, in, in, in a good destination, in a sense it feels really nice to do, because it's not I'm not pressured, because I'm not thinking about how I'm going to make money from it, but also, at the same time, sometimes I'm like, what am I doing working on this? Um, but yeah, that's something that I would really love to to get off the ground and then also just to grow my the newsletter, so that could be, you know, the main focus of helping people and, you know, really just connect loads of people with, with journalists, because that's what I love doing and getting their stories told.
Speaker 1:It sounds like a very well established plan. I was, I was, I was waiting for, like well'm doing this, that's great, but who knows, it seems like you have your life sorted okay okay, okay, I know that I don't want a traditional big pr agency.
Speaker 2:I think, okay, um, yeah, I want to do other things that are kind of slightly more creative okay, I mean that's and that's perfectly fine.
Speaker 1:And I think more people should think like that and not follow the status quo of oh, I've done this thing, now I need to do a better, bigger thing, better, not better, but bigger thing, and so on. And I often tell myself that because, you know, coming from building and selling a B2B SaaS business and now getting into the creative space, you know I'm probably never going to make as much money as B2B, you know, but it satisfies me, my soul and my heart and my creative thirst, um, and I think that's okay definitely.
Speaker 2:I think that's more important yeah.
Speaker 1:So what makes you a misfit? What makes you a misfit, founders? Because you've been in the pr. You think you seem like. You seem like a fit right. You've been in the PR world for ages. Now you master it, you're, you're on the right track with a lot of things. What makes you a misfit?
Speaker 2:so I think it's that I'm giving away the secrets of the PR industry to empower people. Oopsie, um, because yeah, so there's so obviously so many people go from working in pr and they then start their own agencies and they pr.
Speaker 1:People are really funny about sharing their press contacts and um is that because that's the uvp in in many cases, for for some of these agencies, as in, that's the selling point.
Speaker 2:It's like well, you know, I have all the connections in the contacts, in the relationships, and that's why you're paying me um, yes, I know so it did used to be like that, that you just have your kind of little black book full of contacts, um. But now social media is around, all. Pretty much all journalists have their email address in their bio on twitter or you can dm them and chat to them that way, so it is a lot more accessible than it used to be.
Speaker 1:Um, and yeah, I'm trying to just diversify who gets featured in the media, um but I feel that that's an that's an interesting point, because in other industries, um, you have that that has already happened the openness, the open sourcing a lot of this stuff, this information and so on. So, um, so does that, does that make you an outcast of the pr world? They're like this lucy from pr, for the people is giving out all of these trade secrets. She's an outcast exile uh, I hope not.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think so, because I still obviously do client work as well and I work for different smaller agencies on like an ad hoc basis, and I think I think people are realizing more and more that you know that going through a PR agency is not the only way to to get featured. I think sometimes one of the best things you can do is is think about the people that you already know and think you know. Oh, my friend's got a podcast, why don't I ask him to be on it? Or my friend's got a newsletter, why don't I see if I can, you know, write something for that? Um, and yeah, sorry, I forgot your question again uh, I was.
Speaker 1:I was wondering if you ever, basically if you ever had someone, a peer of yours, a pr? Uh person, come in and say ranting, why are you giving all of this stuff away for free or for so cheap? Why are you making it accessible? This is our, this is our work here. Um, we should keep it to ourselves. That's what we're charging money for, and so on. Did you add it? Yeah?
Speaker 2:no, I've never had that um, because I think there will always be a place definitely for pr agencies and um and paid, and you know pr professionals because you know it is. It is really time consuming, um, and it is a really skilled job as well um, so I think there will always be a place for for those companies as well. It's just we need to make sure that we're also letting in the little guys yeah, very true, you're.
Speaker 1:you're definitely on a, on an um inspiring journey with making pr accessible for the people, and I'm not just saying that because I'm your customer um, you know how this ends.
Speaker 2:Three questions yeah, I love these questions.
Speaker 1:Quote that you live by and I say you know because you've been watching every single episode and preparing wordsmithing the titles for the podcast and so on, so you're very close to everything that's happening here. It must be weird to be on the other side.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is weird, I weird dreading watching myself back.
Speaker 1:But it's fine. I'll review it and make a title for you okay, yeah, you can do that one uh, quote that you live by yeah.
Speaker 2:So the quote that I live by, my favorite quote, is if not now, then when? Um? Because, yeah, as I said, I grew up kind of watching my, my parents, kind of say one day they'll try something new. And they never did, um, and I was pushed to try something new and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. So I just think, yeah, if you can with with something that you've been thinking about, just go for it, because, yeah, yeah, there's no greater time like the present yeah agree, uh, okay, um, that gives me, just like some, so many flashbacks um of of not true, not not acting, and so on.
Speaker 2:So that's why I'm like yeah you have to um book so my favorite book is not actually a business book called the chimp paradox and it's um.
Speaker 2:It's essentially about it's written by a neurosurgeon who trains athletes in in kind of high performance, but um, it's about how you can apply his theories to to everyday life and it's basically saying that you shouldn't always trust your emotions, because your emotions are pre-built in by kind of physiological, um predispositions that are kind of from our ancestry and how our bodies are built um. So, yeah, it's basically saying that you shouldn't always trust your emotions and you should take a step back before you kind of act. Um, there's a lot more in the book, but I just feel like definitely in the first six months of my business I was very emotional with it and very reactive and if you know, if I had a customer cancel their membership or if I had um you know, getting sued, um, I would react so emotionally to it and just be like devastated. And I really feel that now, three years in, I've learned to not be quite as um emotional with it um quite as chimpy, yeah, yeah, that's the thing listening to your inner chimp.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna tell this to Nikki and say hey, because I'm, I'm the one emotional and reactive oh, it's the best book. Honestly, like, I think everyone should read it I'll definitely need to, but I'll also tell nikki hey, whenever I'm being reactive or emotional, just just tell me to stop being chimpy.
Speaker 2:That's awesome and a good habit that you advocate for so in business I would say a good habit to have is having hobbies that get you completely um in flow state and and out of your kind of business brain. So I have like my house is a bit of a joke so I've got like roller skates, roller blades. I've just taken up pole dancing as a sport I go to the gym.
Speaker 1:Now what? Pole dancing oh, pole dancing okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I understood something dog dancing okay, pole dancing okay you go to the gym and yeah, so I have lots of different activities that I love doing.
Speaker 1:That completely when do you have time to work?
Speaker 2:I find the time, but I just think, yeah, otherwise your business can really consume you and, um, it's really hard to switch off.
Speaker 1:So I think it's so important to make time for those other yeah, in your life oh yeah, and I and I, I call my, my dogs, my uh therapy sessions as well and like um detached session because, like if I'm, if I'm in the midst of it and I feel like I'm getting dazed and just confused of too many things happening and stressed, I just break, just cuddle with the dogs for a bit and uh or go for a walk.
Speaker 1:Take them for a walk and it just does miracles. And sport as well with training, with um, exercising as well. It's just such an amazing time to just be somewhere and do something that has nothing to do with, one, the environment that you exist in and, two, the stuff that consume you all the time. It's just refreshing to me. Um, definitely so, yeah. So the advice here is take pole dancing, yeah everyone should be, pole dancing.
Speaker 1:Everyone should stop being chimpy. And. Um, yeah, that's really good advice. Well, I really appreciate um being part of this and uh, thank you for sharing your journey. I I know that we just scratched the surface of a lot of these things. Um, we'll come back for volume two of lucy pr for the people. And, and now I appreciate you chatting with me.
Speaker 2:Oh, no thanks for having me Awesome.
Speaker 1:In your lovely studio, this crazy studio.
