Misfit Founders
Misfit Founders
From Finance to Fine Art: Emilia De Stasio's Journey
In this episode, Biro chats with Emilia De Stasio, the founder of Artscapy, a groundbreaking platform making art investment more accessible. Emilia shares her journey from economics and finance to launching Artscapy, her insights into art as an asset class, and how data drives both her analytical and creative processes. From the halls of the European Central Bank to managing investment portfolios, Emilia's unique blend of skills and passions brings a fresh perspective on art, finance, and global citizenship.
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all right, awesome well. Thank you for joining me thanks for having me we met at a pitching event where you pitched your business, um, and we caught up afterwards. I think you have a really cool and interesting business that not a lot of us tech heads and nerds, um get into, but we were talking about that earlier, so rather than me rambling, it would be great to get a quick intro of who you are and an elevator pitch of your business sure, yeah, yeah, so no, thanks for thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, so I'm emilia de sosio. I'm the founder of artiscape. Artise is a wealth management platform for art collecting and investing. We exist to make it more transparent, more accessible, breaking down the barriers to get into this as an asset class and managing an art portfolio. Um, my background is, uh is, in economics and and finance.
Speaker 2:I studied that's what I studied in the US. I did my undergraduate in the US and then I followed with my postgraduate work university here in the UK, and academically, my interests have always been in macroeconomics. It's also what I pursued in terms of analytical research, and I've been published in a few peer-reviewed academic journals, and probably the coolest one has been, or the most famous one, most quoted one, has been the one looking at the macroeconomic effects of Eurozone membership on non-members. So that was a nice experience to do, and after that, my academic journey kind of coincided with my professional one. So I went to the European Central Bank and again I was kind of involved in, let me say, two analytical streams. So one looking at policy implications for the European banking sector and then looking at the Greek banks during the sovereign crisis. And yeah, that was.
Speaker 1:That was a crazy so you're in the middle of that when it was happening.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yeah and I think that was the first moment where I really saw how you tell a different story using numbers.
Speaker 2:So this got me interested in also how do you look at something quantitatively and build a story from that? And so I think that's always been an interest of mine in terms of and also what I do with the startup now and kind of as an investor into startup, is you know what's the story that the data is telling me, whether that's the market data or whether that's the financial data of the business. But that was sort of the first really highlight moment. Is what I was doing there so I was part of the team looking at the Greek banks is what I was doing there, so I was part of the team looking at the Greek banks, and what I found was basically this asset anomaly was up to half a billion and you know that got featured into the report and a week later that was all over the headlines in Europe. So I was shocked to see you know how one number on a spreadsheet then ends up being Interesting.
Speaker 1:So basically you took down the um the greek economy.
Speaker 2:I'm joking, I was like they found some numbers with me, but yeah, wow, that is, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:Well, so it seems sounds like you're really into numbers, like you would put it in very, very simple terms, quite analytical where does that come from? Do you, do you know the is there? How did that interest got started? How did it evolve? Must have been some trigger moments when you were younger and you're like well, I, I love these calculations in school, or I love oh yeah, I, I think, I think.
Speaker 2:So I've always been quite curious and what I like is is understanding in some sense, not the truth, but like understanding the, the story that is the real story.
Speaker 2:So numbers don't lie yeah uh, you know we make up different uh explanations for things, but that is an area that can really influence things. So you see, you can spot trends. I mean a lot of the research they end up doing after that is also into different asset markets, asset classes. I've always been interested in alternative investments, but also that what's interesting to see is what moves the number. So I like also this idea of the, the relational thing, so, um, how the different x's influence the y. So thinking about very statistical analysis, I mean it's getting very like nerdy and geeky, no, but I understand, I mean I understand it.
Speaker 1:I don't like it, but I understand it, I mean I understand. I understand now where the source of that, that interest, comes from.
Speaker 1:Um sounds like you're interested in the true, the raw true yeah the true, true behind certain things and the cause and effect and the cause and effect yeah, and the way you can get to discover that truth or the cause and effect and the cause and effect yeah, and the way you can get to discover that truth or the cause and effect is by um, looking at and analyzing the numbers, the data exactly um and everything in between. That makes a lot of sense. So that's that has been your, your passion since the early days. Were you, were you good in school? Were you?
Speaker 2:how was school I was? I was, uh, I mean, I was basically a straight eight student in that sense, uh figures, yeah, yeah, figures, figures, figures, figures, yes yes, no, I think. I think it's always been the intellectual curiosity um been always quite broad and and I think that's quite a red thread throughout my entire journey.
Speaker 2:In terms of that, that's where my passion for the arts come in as well, is this curiosity of how do people see things, how do people interact, how do they interpret things. And I happen to apply it personally in my personal life, in my professional life, analytically, but then intellectually I like to open that field, so that goes into languages, that goes into travel, that goes into seeing how different people live, how do they look at things, and that's captured for me in the art.
Speaker 1:Very interesting and I can see the connection, the relation there. We'll talk a bit in a second about your transition to you know, the career that you had into your startup super analytical and someone that works with numbers. What on earth are you doing in arts? Right so, but you explaining where that drive comes from? I mean it's, it's natural, because you know we are it. I mean me, we. I can't necessarily say that because I sometimes take things for granted. I don't think I have your passion in finding the truth and nothing but the truth and the cause and effect of stuff. I just take things as they are quite often. But I think Nikki would probably be a lot more in your tune in that sense. But I can understand where the interest in art comes, because it's not just a. I love numbers.
Speaker 1:No that's not the drive. The drive is um something else that can be applied to anything, like you said travel, people, arts and such yeah very interesting how. How did you get to us? Because you studied in us yeah, so so I, where are you originally from?
Speaker 2:actually sweden, sweden, okay yeah, yes, yes, um, but yeah, my husband is Italian, so if I make hand gestures, that's why it's by osmosis.
Speaker 1:My mom lives in Italy and my sister used to as well, so when I go there.
Speaker 2:But it's very useful, it's very Gives expression Right and yeah, no. So I was interested I've always been interested in in languages, so my, my mother is hungarian, so speak swedish hungarian then started learning english in sweden. We learn other languages very early, um, and so that already set its own track and I knew I wanted to leave sweden. Not because it's you know, I am a bad place in any sense of the world. I think it's now, having traveled, is one of the best countries in the world. But the idea of having a an international and a free career, being having that freedom basically, and that I felt from a very early on, comes from languages, from english, from having an international exposure.
Speaker 2:So I went to an all, all english high school and sort of 50 of us more than 50 continue abroad all english high school, as in, you would speak only english yes, we learned all of the Swedish in english interesting so so a lot of that, like a lot of the materials and and kind of off lesson talk would be in english, but then we would keep learning swedish as such that is interesting, yeah, and I have like, also like I studied spanish. But then, spanish was in english, not spanish to swedish even though right.
Speaker 1:So like what was the translation exactly? Yeah, is that a common? Not at all, there's no very.
Speaker 2:I mean, there are a few, few kind of high schools or institutions that do that. Um, I first didn't want to do it and then I said, okay, I'll just take the plunge and I'll learn it. And now at this point I there are most topics I can't describe them in in swedish anymore same, just because I learned them first firsthand in english, and that's it yeah, like I've learned a lot of the business, startup, tech vocabulary in English and I can't, like, I can't have.
Speaker 1:Like I had a couple of friends even when we met at that event. There were two Romanians there. Yeah, business people, startup people and they started talking to me in Romanian hey, florin, what's up? Like I'm good, good, good, can we switch to English? Because if you ask me about my past and how I managed to get here in Romanian, I'm going to sound illiterate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. The worst is when you also translate expressions without realizing it. Like I would translate English expressions like not my cup of tea, and people were like no, what are you saying?
Speaker 1:we don't say that in sweden and sorry for asking you questions about this, but I'm genuinely interesting. Interested because I don't have. I have one friend here in that's from sweden, but I don't know much about sw Sweden in that sense. This drive to basically be a in a sense of global citizen and be free and go abroad and do stuff in other places and is this something that is common in Sweden or because I'll give you an example in my country is not like. In my country everyone leaves because they want to build a better life, want to build certain level of um, revenue and wealth, to be able to build a better life for them in Romania yeah but no one.
Speaker 1:I mean not no one. There's people, but not many. The majority always want to return back home and people don't feel that much that they fit in anywhere else than Romania. So it's kind of like it's you don't find people being kind of like considering themselves global citizens?
Speaker 2:I do as well, like I don't have a specific place that I feel that organic attraction as a home place yeah, I got used to uk yeah but like I'm fascinated by a lot of places and I can see myself living and calling home a lot of places, yeah, yeah, and for a long time I kind of struggled with this, because everyone else seems to have this idea of.
Speaker 2:This is my home, this is my nationality, this is what my but I I really feel like in this day and age also we are. We are kind of beyond that in some sense. I think the the general acceptance is is much higher than that. We are all in some sense global citizens, and I think it's about time that we should also think about that more like the world is interconnected. Certainly we see it with climate change, with peoples, with wars, with everything. To think beyond just your home country or where you were born Doesn't define you as such, and so I've never. I do feel Swedish, but I wouldn't necessarily say I'm the model Swede.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do think that with technology and with the evolution of the internet and all being, like you said, interconnected, that has somehow changed. There's a lot more diversity, in a sense, in how we think and how we see each other yeah although we're coming from maybe different traditions and different habits and and so on. Um, and I agree, in more metropolitan areas and cities like you don't really like here, or when I was living in in london, you know, it felt kind of like a lame question to ask someone oh, where are you from?
Speaker 1:because you have an accent or it doesn't seem like you're from here, um, but I think in other areas it's still pretty much like a novelty. Um, there's still areas that are quite deeply rooted nationalist or just purely simply haven't had the that much of a influx of um connections and um a touch with anyone else than you know, your neighbor, that has the same traditions and the habits and culture as you do. So I do think from from a, you know, metropolitan perspective and so on, that's, that's probably. Yeah, you don't, you can't, you don't feel alien or as a stranger, but there are plenty of places on the globe that are still like that, yeah, and I mean, I don't know if that's a bad thing or a good thing.
Speaker 1:I don't want to get into politics and this and that, but at the end of the day, you know if, if there's an area that just wants to be the way they want to be and look upon people that are outsiders as outsiders, there are plenty of places where we can feel because I'm the same right like I've. I didn't. I don't think I felt very comfortable in romania when I was back there and as soon as I came to to uk I felt that it was. I was a bit more connected with um culture and people here, especially in london, brighton so um, so from there.
Speaker 1:So you worked. You worked in Europe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, European Central Bank in Frankfurt.
Speaker 1:In Frankfurt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was there for a year and then I got offered a role to come to London to work at Moody's, which is one of the credit ratings agencies, and again, I sort of followed two paths. One was this analysis of asset markets, looking at exchange rates, alternative assets, how those markets are moving. And then I had the fortune or misfortune to be the lead analyst on Brexit, which was another very interesting time.
Speaker 1:You sound like you're the right person at the right time.
Speaker 2:Always yeah, because it feeds your curiosity and your interest in such a yeah, and and this, this I mean there was was hard to tell a story necessarily based on data and truth, but you're trying to predict what will happen and and then watching also the how, how things play out. Basically so was looking at, yeah, how that affects the not just the UK economy but the European economy, and so that was by far a really interesting time. And and then it was basically at that time that I also started to get interested more in the real economy applications and into investment and and I ended up getting an offer to become an investment manager at this family office where a little bit of the art started to sweep in professionally.
Speaker 2:And we'll get more into that later on, I suppose, but it was fundamentally looking at startups and building out the portfolio there. So really, the application of that kind of analytical frameworks and thinking into looking at businesses, again being an investor. Then founders will obviously tell you the story. They have a connection with the business, they have their motivations for doing things, they have observed the problem, they're building the solution. But what does the actual data tell you? Is there a market? Are you, what's your, what's your attraction, numbers and so forth. So that was a an interesting application of my kind of analytical thinking into something that is very much real economy, innovation and technology.
Speaker 1:Now I understand why your pitch deck was so pristine.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Because you've been dealing with pitches and investment decks for quite a while.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, but it switches a lot when you. Now I see it, it's incredibly hard to tell your own story oh yeah uh, objectively, um, it's, it's. It's always very easy to judge someone else's work, which I mean you see as well now as an angel investor. Um that, and as opposed to when you were were running things as well, and I mean, you keep running things um it's easy to tell someone what they're doing wrong.
Speaker 2:It's very difficult to tell yourself what you're doing wrong yeah, but I think if you manage to kind of apply yourself or think about the questions that an investor might ask or, in my case, having been in that situation myself, that really helps to to also prepare for that. Yeah, because if you know, okay, what are they going to think, what are some of the dynamics of investing into, into startups, um, and what, what are the kind of hierarchies of, let me say anything from traction metrics through to you know what does good look like numerically. Uh, then that that really helps you as a, as a founder it definitely doesn't.
Speaker 1:I think it does help you that you've you've collected so much experience in um, in research and analysis and all of the things that you've done in the past, because you know, that is one of the things that I think, more often than not, people lack which is the ability to think analytical about their business and not emotional yes, yeah, right, that's because you, you go and, oh yeah, my thing is, I love what I'm doing is so great, this is a idea, and you completely ignore having to do market research, customer research, get feedback and, you know, create this layer, this base layer that's based on data and raw information, versus just your emotions and feelings and your friends' feelings about what you're building, which.
Speaker 2:I think, is where a lot of the problems of product market fit comes in right, because you think you're building this incredible solution to this problem that surely exists yeah broadly and widely and has a big application, but if you haven't looked at the numbers backing that, or reports or something beyond your friend circle, that's when you, I think, end up a lot of times in this kind of um mismatch really, because you're, you're, you're thinking you're doing something that has value, but actually the market doesn't see big value to it, and so that's what we, that's what I always try to think and that's where, when I put on, because I still do some angel investing, that's what we, that's what I always try to think and that's where, when I put on, because I still do some angel investing, that's the hat that immediately comes on. First is okay, what is the market opportunity? And how much have you looked at that? And how much can I see there being a market that's growing for, for this business, and how much of it are you able to to capture?
Speaker 1:and it's also funny like I've had three um people, three startup founders, lately send me their pitch deck to to review and give them feedback, and all three of them were missing the um, basically the market opportunity, it's like, and that to me feels the most generic and the first thing that you put in there yeah and sometimes I also um, kind of like I roll when people just slap up a graph of, yeah, the market is 50 billion and, yeah, not much of of details around why and how is that an opportunity for you?
Speaker 1:but but there's also a lot of people that just don't put that on, which is odd yeah, because they expect it to be obvious in some sense.
Speaker 2:But obvious.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, probably it's for them, but then it's obvious.
Speaker 2:But unless you're putting a number to it. Yeah, I can see it. Every product is nice in some sense, but it's people gonna pay for it. Is there a market for it?
Speaker 1:that's very, very different I mean, I don't understand in setups where you're pitching to someone that is already deep into that specific market and industry, like for example with us, with Atlassian ecosystem in the past, like if you would pitch to a vendor or a partner Atlassian partner for funding. Well, don't need to put what's the market size and so on.
Speaker 1:They are already in it and they know it better than you. But in general, if you're pitching to a group of investors or a single investor, don't expect for them to know much about that exactly, which is why you need to put it there yeah. So I'm curious, before getting into this, um, family fund, um, uh, role, what was it that you liked and disliked?
Speaker 2:so one thing that you liked and one thing that you disliked about the job that you had prior to that I would say, if we start from, uh, the things I like this is is the, the analytical bit and being able to. So what I thankfully always and and thanks to my, my superiors at the time I had the freedom to kind of craft my own way. I was it was, very atypical corporate and public institution kind of worker, while most people are quite segmented. I would run around and create my own little space to to explore and run different kinds of projects, um, so I enjoyed that. And obviously the analytical bit, the nerdiness, um, and and indeed that's something that I must confess I miss a little bit now uh is there is the nerdiness of running, running assessments and running big, big data reports and stuff like this.
Speaker 1:I'm curious sorry, indra, I'm curious with that what some of those things led to. Did they lead to something? Did they lead to action where, oh, we discovered this terrible thing or this amazing thing in data. Was it simply research and or and reporting? And was that research and reporting taken and done something with it, like produce change and stuff?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, I mean, the big one was the, was the greek banks, I mean that was uh all over the, all over the news after that. I mean, half a billion was was a lot to add on to the, to the capitalization, so that was, that was a really big one. But then everything in the in the brexit realm was, was big. Um, I basically almost I almost took down the norwegian housing market, uh, single-handedly. Oh my god um, yeah, because I ran, I ran, I ran a study on looking at housing market bubbles yeah and norway came out as as a as a big one.
Speaker 2:And you know we because that was that was done through moody's, and obviously we have connections as an institution, as moody's, you'd have connections with, um various sovereign parties there, um big banks and so forth.
Speaker 2:And it was like what are you guys saying? What are you doing? Like you need to not do this right now. And that was an incredible journey to see your work having an effect and that led eventually to to some reforms and and, and you know, changing some of the of the landscape, to to to adjust for these dynamics well, yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:you know that's always good, like we're joking and and laughing here that you're crashing countries, economies and so on, but fundamentally is um, but fundamentally there's nothing much positive that can come off of bubbles.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Unless you're there to profiteer off of a bubble burst. There's not much that can come out of tipping on the other direction once it happens and so on tipping on the other direction once it happens, and so on. But it's overall positive that we get to research analyze and fix ourselves as a financial civilization, in a sense, and are able to, uh, to adapt, because imagine if, if the bubble never bursts, exactly, exactly it's gonna be much, much worse yeah the later on.
Speaker 2:You, you find it and I think that that application is, is everywhere right. So that's something I encourage every, every founder that I also speak with and and work with is okay, what? What is your data telling you? Because if you, if your mind is set on, it's gonna work this in this way, because I know it is not the same as if you have the data back.
Speaker 1:From my experience, exactly, exactly yeah we, we all kind of do that quite a bit which is yes with human nature yeah, and I sometimes I'm annoyed with myself because sometimes I, you know, I give advice from you, know my experience and such um of course we do but I'm also I I'm not that good when it comes to to numbers, uh, and I don't have a very analytical brain, right.
Speaker 1:So I talk a lot from my experience rather than saying well, the numbers are like this and you know, based on research and so on. If you want to have that kind of conversation, I'm just going to go and ask Nikki to come in the room, okay.
Speaker 2:I'll just do a one-man lecture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but so the other thing that I was curious, so it seems like you, you is it you being involved in all of these major events, economical events, at the base of the research of some of these things? Is it strictly being in the right place at the right time, or is it that? Because what I'm wondering, to put a context here, is how did no other researchers and analysts came and said norway, you're screwed right. Um, here's the data. And you were the first one to do that. Is it just because it was getting there and you were just assigned this project and you realize this thing out of the blue? Is it that there's not that much research in general and and an analysis in economies and and fine finances in countries and so on? So why is that?
Speaker 2:um, well, I think it's also a bit like thinking about the, the, the startup journey, like how, how come you found this idea right and no one else is doing it? It's a bit the same. It's really the same question, like, and I think it comes from, yeah, your, your investigation. So, whether that investigation is qualitative, quantitative, in-depth, shallow, something has given you an idea that this is worth to explore, regardless of how you explore it, something has given you a hunch that this is worth to explore. Then again, you do it qualitatively. I think this is the right business right now. This is the study I want to run, and if we're getting then to to the kind of analytical work I was doing, then obviously you need to have the data that backs it, and there have been cases.
Speaker 2:You know where I was like this is an observation I made. I want to investigate it, and then it turns out the data isn't strong enough. And then you have to, you have to let it go, you have to see it go away that must suck in a bit like that is tough.
Speaker 1:It's you spend some. I suppose you spend a lot of time doing that digging and then realizing actually this there's nothing here, yeah but it's the same with it, with their startup right.
Speaker 2:so unless you're thinking about things like product market fit, you're gonna go down this hole that you are so sure of and then at some point the data catches up with you because it's not there. The need of the market isn't there, the demand of the market isn't there. You kind of catch up to that and that's very much the same analogy in my mind. You think you've observed something, going to look at it and really think about it, really assess it, and then you see it's not solid enough. You have to let it go. You have to have and I think that's the basis of what I hope to have kind of intellectual honesty. Right. With a lot of people, you know you refuse to shift your opinion when facing new data, and that's. It is tough to do, but I think you have to be able to do it, otherwise, as a founder, you don't survive. If you're not able to do that, you don't survive, unless you are very right and you can be right without not investing.
Speaker 1:but that would be luck I was like I feel that you know, it's this gut feeling thing which I never knew what to believe, what to think of it. Right, because you know I've had things, the gut feel type of moments, and it turned out to be right. But I do feel that maybe it's subconsciously collection of information that gives you a certain type of feeling. Yeah, that's true, this, and you've done this homework, research, but you you don't directly in your mind connect it to this specific turn of events or decision making point. But that gut feel does come from somewhere. Right, it will come from a collection of of happenings.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah that you might not put end to end and be so super analytical as in well here's the abcs, and so on but it's something that you already stored um in yourself and and it expresses, rather than uh thinking through, a certain type of emotion and yeah, probably I don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that goes into to to true innovation and to startup life. Whichever side you're on, whether you're the founder or the investor, there is obviously a certain sense of uncertainty. You can't know or predict the future, and a lot of the best kind of businesses that we see out there are built on a hunch or an idea. You know, Airbnb comes around and all the investors went. What do you mean? People are going to couch surf. No way, they're going to couch. There's no market. Well, fast forward a few years and you know it's one of the major companies in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I feel that it's the same with a lot of the disruptive markets. You know, most of I'm going to say analysts now I feel like I'm stinging you Most of the analysts would have probably looked at it and said it makes no sense, it makes zero sense, don't do it. But then you know, there's that foolish, crazy person that does it and they break through. But I also think that that's kind of like you know, people look up to so many disruptive founders and entrepreneurs out there, but the thing is we don't see all of the others that were quite foolish and mad and failed and kind of like never got the opportunity to to try again or continue to fail with kind of like a foolish and rushed approach to to trying to start stuff Right. But you know, you see media with all of these, you know.
Speaker 1:A-listers in terms of founders and how they were so crazy and non-believed in them and they made it happen that you think, well, you have to be like that. I don't think that's the truth. I think most of us need to have a really well-balanced like.
Speaker 1:I don't invest in crazy people, sorry for what I'm saying calling crazy people, right, but but like there needs to be a certain level of maturity and um kind of like spread in skills and yeah, um, and aptitude, uh, and less of that mad doctor type of traits in a sense. Because you know, I look at that and I'm like, well, I know because I've been there and I've tried that other side and I failed miserably several times. I know other people that failed as well yeah I want someone that I can see as potentially a really good character, that mature, that can deliver stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's not to say that no one should invest in crazy ideas and large wild personalities that just go by their gut feeling and whatever they might be thinking in their brain when taking that decision. You should because you know otherwise you wouldn't have the, you know, the Steve Jobs and this and this and that of the world, if no one would give them a dime or any attention.
Speaker 2:But it's about the balance right and for me personally, that filter is the data, because you can be crazy or not, the crazy that succeeds is the one that has data, be it the market, be it demand yeah that meets the crazy, so the crazy was right yeah crazy. Not right is just foolish, it's just crazy. Yeah, it's crazy, it's crazy um yeah, and it's.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it happens that you, you have someone that is a big personality and they have a kind of like the type of character that is not for everyone, but they also are a genius and they basically take in consideration all of the variables. Right, you also have the same type of person, but just completely ignoring data, and it just happens because they were in the right place yeah, exactly, um, so yeah, no, I completely got into the the founder and startup and business discussion.
Speaker 1:I just wanted to quickly go back to this just to finish the point. So you told me what you liked about that world. What was it that you didn't like, and was that these things that you didn't like that triggered you to move into startup world and kind of like art, investment and such, or was it something else? Fully loaded question. Sorry. Kind of like art, invest, investment and such, or was something? Was it something else?
Speaker 2:fully loaded question sorry no, but I would say I would say there is. There is a line. I think the thing, what I missed what I missed, whether it's a public institution or a corporate job is is the lack of reach and and the lack of you know what you're doing, having a direct impact, like when you're in your corporate job or in a public institution. You are told to do stuff. Your role is like this you do X, y, z and you can take, you can take obviously satisfaction from that, but it's rare that you see the full chain of what you're doing and having a full implication of all the work you're doing. What I love about being a founder is I have a direct impact. Everything I do, I see it coming out immediately On good and bad right, because on one hand, that means that I have to keep pushing myself and if I keep pushing myself, things go better for the business or we at least make progress, we learn something and we iterate on that. If I don't, you know, you don't see that impact.
Speaker 2:So, a bit of a double-edged sword Because, on one hand, what I do miss from the corporate career is this point that basically you, if you wanted to, you could just coast for a week. Nothing's gonna happen. You still correct your paycheck.
Speaker 1:But coasting for a week as a founder, you start to see the the implications oh yeah, but I mean, just give it until you're because we were talking about this earlier, about that I probably am not a fit to run a company that's you know 100, 500 people and making X amount of money and you have an entire team to do stuff and analysts and brains to figure out how to take the business further in terms of the leadership team, and you'll be able to coast this. Yeah, I don't know if you're gonna enjoy that much that role maybe yeah, well, I guess from our conversation before you didn't.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that was your exit point, basically.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's that I didn't, because I don't think I've been in that position, at the absolute purest of that type of position, because I've never had a company that was 100 or 500 people and making tens of millions per year or per month in revenue. So I haven't been there.
Speaker 1:But I know people and I've seen people and I've seen companies that size and I'm like I don't think that's for me yeah, um yeah, and I guess you'll find out yeah, yeah I mean, I'm now kind of like really believing in your um business right because I'm not, I'm not, even, I'm not even uh saying, maybe okay, you'll get there um I hope so, not going to come with yeah, yeah true? Um, so how did you get to artscaping?
Speaker 2:yeah, so the the art from the, from the basic of okay, someone is very analytical, very black and white numbers, okay, the truth, uh, it seems far off the the art, but I think that comes into one, the curiosity and the, this connection of worlds. And I mean, while numbers fascinate me as a professional, the art is, is enormously influential for me, kind of mentally. Uh, it helps me understand the world, get new impressions, open my mind, and so the art has always been a personal interest and I'm zero creative, uh, my creativity so you can't paint.
Speaker 2:Uh, can't paint a painting no, I can barely do a stick figure like that's.
Speaker 1:That's about maybe you should do it. Who knows, maybe that's going to be worth a ton of money in the future yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's um no, but I'm so.
Speaker 2:I'm zero creative myself uh but I love art and how it can tell a story, so for for me that the point that you can bring up so many mental states, impressions, connections from like a 50 by 70 piece of paper, yeah is astounding to me and that that has you can draw historic connotations, political, social, in a single image.
Speaker 2:Is is is what fascinates me a lot, and how art connects people, connects worlds, tell stories of the present, of the past, and and how artists they're really your social scientists, they, they don't they. I mean, if anyone is going to predict the future, they do. They see things before they become a big thing, and I think that's why do you think?
Speaker 1:what do you think that is? Where does it? Because they are that's.
Speaker 2:That's, I think part of great artists are are very um acutely watching the world.
Speaker 1:For good or bad, they they tend to and reflecting exactly kind of like you know, this kind of like thinking, deep thinking exactly that that us normal humans don't do.
Speaker 2:They do, you know, on on, on, on several levels deeper, and then they transfer that into into a visual language there's a word for that there is when you think when you, when you, when you're sat, and you and you think quite deeply about the future. I don't know what, what the word is we'll, we'll, yeah, we'll put it on the screen, or someone can put it in comments yeah, even better.
Speaker 1:You see, you're. You're good at social media, social media engagement. Um. What type of art is it that you find is most impactful to how you feel and how the type of thoughts and emotions that um bring up to you? For you?
Speaker 2:like is there a?
Speaker 2:specific type that you feel that's most impactful yes, so, so also, that is, once you start to look at art and and and, a bit like I, I get from you it's this kind of curiosity, right, so you are into also the, the audio, the visual, like understanding that for me it's been very similar journey into the art. So the more you start to look at it, you start to also appreciate and understand your own fascination with it, what, what attracts you, what interests you. That kind of develops also. The collection, um, and so at this point we've our collection is basically across three strands.
Speaker 2:So one is is the environmental commentary on the on the environment, climate change, uh, this sort of thing, um, social, political, so political works, and then finally the, the construction of the self. So what are the, what are the moments that we go through that define us? How does this idea of the eye or the self, or our place in the world, what are the things we go through in shaping that which sounds very, very esoteric and very big, but there are artists that are capturing this.
Speaker 1:I think we, we maybe in the kind of like day-to-day, um, kind of like nine to five, working, living your life and you know this kind of like repetitive pattern of a life. You don't necessarily, but that sounds like something. That's where the art comes in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it that's what it gives me, that's the commentary, that's the, that's the self-reflection, that's that captured in a, in a, in a visual state, and transmitting these kind of messages, which is what I find so fascinating. So those are kind of the three main main strands. We also don't collect any artists that aren't aren't alive, like the collection has to be a contemporary on the platform.
Speaker 1:You mean no, personally, my personal, my personal.
Speaker 2:Now I'm talking only about my personal right how come because for me that the collection has to be a reflection of my time, like, as much as I think, artists like world or basquiat picasso, all these guys obviously from different timeframes. As much as I admire them and I think they have artistic quality, I didn't personally live through those times, so I wasn't in the riots and mayhem of New York in the 70s.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:So I don't feel like I can or should preserve that part. I would like to tell the story of the world that I lived through but do you find that?
Speaker 1:that's because some of the people that I, that I meet and I don't know a lot of um art collectors, right, feeling of owning stuff that isn't from today, that was back then, that was in this era in this century, and so on, and they're infatuated with that right on and and they're infatuated with that right, with keeping and preserving those type of art and and collectibles and things like that that were from from back in the day.
Speaker 1:so I I found it really fascinating that you because I've not never met someone that's like. Well, I relate to, to today's, and I feel the responsibility of of collecting and preserving art that's created today in my time yes um interesting you know, and and for sure there.
Speaker 2:So there are different categories of, of collectors, of investors there's there's a whole argument then to what goes into kind of what is good art, what is investable art, and and and that's also the kind of bridge or intersection, where, where artscapey plays, because your art is your wealth in some sense, or, and and what I always say is art is anyway the only kind of asset that yields twice. I mean it yields on our walls as an intellectual stimulus, as something that broadens and opens the mind, with the potential to also benefit your wallet.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If you're buying good stuff, there is a potential to increase in value and therefore becomes.
Speaker 1:Well, there are also cars, cars collections, and there's cars that appreciate in value over time and so on. So I think cars are a good. I mean not all cars like my car outside probably depreciated like 10k since I bought it a couple of months ago, so so no, um, I think it's with all the collectible assets.
Speaker 2:That's what, what comes in and, in general, in the alternative space, right, it's also where some kind of personal passion is meeting the that, um, you basically uh, look at and your investors and the users of the platform look, look at, or what?
Speaker 1:how does it work?
Speaker 2:so the, the platform is free to to to the user. So we, indeed we have people who are using Artscape also for antiques.
Speaker 1:So you can add anything.
Speaker 2:Any kind of collectible. Really, it is built first and foremost for art. That's where we are starting from. We are totally medium agnostic. So we have people who are putting NFTs, digital art they're kind of keeping track as a record keeping and checking the value and so forth but then otherwise we have sculpture, paints, paintings, prints, any kind of art we don't say it's only for this, it's only contemporary.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's from all kinds of so the platform is a record-keeping platform, in a sense, for art collectors and investors and so on. What are some of the features? What? What's some of the stuff that you can do with the platform as a, let's say, as an art collector, slash investor?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah. So I would say artscape is is like a bank account but, for, but for art.
Speaker 2:So imagine, so I I even tend to say we're sort of the revolute of art in the sense. Imagine how to say we're sort of the Revolut of art. So in a sense, imagine how Revolut and the likes of Revolut are places where you manage your financial assets. You kind of keep track of them over time. You see the composition, you can access further services, you can trade, you can have your stocks or whatever. It's essentially a stock portfolio, but for art. So you have your catalogue of your art, so you have your, your, your catalog of your art. You store your invoices, authentication certificates, but then you also have all the all the services. So basically, with one click you ensure a work, you can value the works and you also access the financing solution, so using the art as collateral, so getting money back on the art.
Speaker 1:All of this happens on your platform.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You must have invested a lot of time, energy and money to build a platform that does all of this stuff. Can you also sell your art? So you do the transactions between buyer and seller.
Speaker 2:Full brokerage. We do auction consignments, buyer and seller brokerage. We do auction consignments, so say you came to me and say, okay, love what you're doing, but I want to sell through phillips or sotheby's or what have you. Well, we can do that for you as well. So we do that for our collectors. We do private brokerage. If you want to be private, if you want to put it, put it publicly, you can do that as well. So I think in some sense we're also the first to really facilitate true peer-to-peer trading among collectors.
Speaker 2:And that goes back also to the very archaic nature of the of the art market, where things have been under digitalized for so long yeah that you have some really obscure market dynamics, juicy margins that are in some sense needless and what people don't like anymore, and so we are offering a way to do that in a more efficient and, I think, savvier way that is.
Speaker 1:That is a lot of you know I didn't realize. I've seen your pitch and and all this stuff. I didn't realize how much, how much you packed in artscapey um so it's not that good in the end.
Speaker 1:I have room to improve the pitch. Well, you know, sitting down and talking through a bit more in detail about it, it makes more sense. I also think that there's a you know, the first time when you pitch to someone, right, there's a lot of information thrown at you in one right. So you're trying to kind of like oh, oh, what's the valuation, or how are doing here, and some of the details might be forgotten or a meet omitted in one's brain, right, what's what has been the? Which part of your many parts business has been the most challenging to implement?
Speaker 2:Most challenging to implement, I mean. So we've been quite fast in just doing. I think one thing that we've been very good at and that's big thanks to my co-founder is being fast at implementing things and testing them in the market. I think the thing that is the most difficult but it's mostly because you're getting into regulated territory is, let me say, the more hardcore financial services for which you need to be regulated and therefore that needs to be a much longer, much more considered journey to do, and that's something we're still just kind of starting out with um. So that's that's where, but that's also where I mean one of the the key goals of mine as a founder of Artescape is Legitimatizing art as an asset class, so people are putting a lot of money.
Speaker 1:It's not considered an asset.
Speaker 2:No, it's a non-regulated market, which is why you have.
Speaker 1:So if you have I don't know let's say, a Monet painting in your house that's worth 10 million, Is it not considered an asset?
Speaker 2:Not formally.
Speaker 1:So you can't leverage on it or anything like that.
Speaker 2:You can. So there's specialized providers that do do that, but specialized not.
Speaker 1:You know, for example, you can't go to a regular bank and and and get a loan based on your painting.
Speaker 2:No interesting, I didn't realize that big banks will have a department that will do that. The big banks tend to start from sort of five million and up which you know, your everyday collector usually doesn't have right um, which is where we're coming in and sort of as well to look at eventually. But no, yeah, it's a totally unregulated market, which means there's quite a bit of misleading information. A lot of lack of transparency is hidden in this kind of elusive language.
Speaker 1:that what we're hoping to make a difference lot of sharks, I suppose as well yeah, for sure because if it's not regulated one, if it's not regulated and if you're mainstream and uh, high street, uh, banks and financial institutions don't offer services around it, then you know, more often than not, what happens is, you know, you get kind of like these sharks that want to make a lot of, let's say, a lot of profit out of your, say, need yeah, yeah, but, but even on the justice seller side.
Speaker 2:So this is where my I I basically lose my mind as a financial analyst is is when I see these other sellers also galleries they're. They're essentially we're calling them internally sort of investment galleries. They're proposing art as an investment, um, even though it's unregulated, and they're showing obviously because they can. There's no one's going to stop them. They're showing very selective data, saying, okay, I have this, this artist x. He went from 100 to 250 in two years and now I'm selling you artist y, which, for whatever reason, is going to be similar to artist x. You should buy from us, and this is kind of the rhetoric. And there's no, no checkup, there's no, you're just using that as tactic to sell your inventory you must like your skin my crow because you're like where's the data?
Speaker 1:you're just selling it from what you're saying that's worth, or yeah?
Speaker 2:yeah. And so we, we are speaking to collectors every day who are like, oh yeah, but I'm, I've been promised this, this artist, why? And we're like, okay, let's, let's look at it then. Sure like sure. Do you like, first and foremost, do you like this artist? That's the unlike other kind of investment classes and, I think, common across the collectible spaces. Do you like this?
Speaker 2:asset in general, so you should first rule of collecting is you buy only things that you like, because if you don't, it's a long-term investment. So you're not gonna hang something on your wall that you don't like or don't agree with. So that's, that's. That's kind of the the rule number one. But then it's understanding a bit of the, the, the, the background to it. So if you're looking at it as an investment class, there has to be signs of market potential. You have to be able to bring in some kind of objective measure. So look at, okay, what's the, what's the secondary market of this artist? How, how is he, she doing at auctions? How is it being recognized by the wider establishment? Does it have a place in art history? Like? There's a lot of these factors that these investment galleries tend to like to not talk about, and that leads people off of the wrong track. Well, if you think about traditional wealth management services or other assets, you wouldn't even be allowed or able really to do that yeah, but because there is no oversight.
Speaker 1:It's a wild wild west do you think it's ever going to be regulated?
Speaker 2:I think so and I mean I, I hope so. So we're now hopefully in conversation with the FCA to start to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I'm hoping that it's going to get somewhere are you going to disturb yet another, disrupt yet another economy and market.
Speaker 2:I promise I'll stop after that but I think yeah.
Speaker 2:I think it's healthy, I think that's where it needs to go. I think there, yeah, I think it's healthy, I think that's where it needs to go. I think there's a lot of consumer protection and a lot of wealth that can be created in that way and support of cultural production, which is the first and foremost reason that I collect that needs to come into it, and I think that's the kind of disruption if you I hate the word disruption, but the kind of change that we're hoping to to drive what?
Speaker 1:what do you think is going to happen to the, the value of art, once that happens, once um?
Speaker 2:basically, it gets um yeah, I think you, you, you see it, or it's what the difficult part of art is that it's not, it's not the a lot, it's not the objective thing of what it is, because a paper is, a is a paper. Now, they're obviously a high quality paper, the high quality paints, oil, whatever, but that's not the inherent value. The inherent value is the intellectual output that goes into the, into the work. Well, you wouldn't really say the same thing about a, about a car.
Speaker 1:So there are objective measures. Okay, the zero to 60 in in so much time, this kind of cylinder, this and that um not all of them, like there's a lot of collectible cars that have a a sentimental um and also intellectual meaning, because you know this specific um driver personality yes, exactly owned it and this happened with the car and so on which is not necessarily spec specs, but most of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right it's a lot of anyway and and even even watches, there's a lot of the, the engineering that you are basically paying for the, the lightness of material and so forth. The art isn't the same.
Speaker 2:So there comes, and that's where kind of guidance context, um, using using some information and tools and doing your research beforehand comes into play, and that's, I know, what we're hoping to do also with with our scape, is is guiding people on this, on this path because, I've seen too many people who have been misled and then they they come to us and say okay, well, I can't sell this piece now and we say I'm very sorry, but I think it's been oversold to you in the in the very first place and you know we will help you. Try to find a collection that kind of stands the test of time, if you will.
Speaker 1:That's what we're hoping to do right, and how would that would you be able to? Is it something so you know the market being regulated right? Does it have any specific benefits for your business right? Or would it positively or negatively impact your business? Would you have certain you know features to think about implementing once that happens? Have you ever thought about that? What would happen?
Speaker 2:If it was more regulated, I think it would benefit, because that's also that's what we're hoping to do is do things in the right way focus on the, on the on the client. So by not representing ever any artist or any gallery we don't have any affiliation with, with, with any kind of seller, whether it's the producer or the, the representative.
Speaker 2:That frees us from any kind of bias and lets us focus just on the on the client right and so if we're, if we're doing that and we're doing it in the right kind of framework, uh, in a, in a, in a landscape that is regulated, I think that can only, that can only benefit us, because we have then the the groundwork set for that to help to kind of steer people on this, on this journey well, that makes sense and probably less drama and headaches yeah as well. Yeah, less, less, less crying after investment galleries yeah, um how big is your team today?
Speaker 2:uh, yeah, we're sort of uh, 10, 10, 11 people and how, how?
Speaker 1:how do you distribute? That is, you have um, part of um, your team. That's our, that our product marketing. How does it work? How do you basically build a business that combines art and technology in the same time?
Speaker 2:yes, yes. So so that's a that's an interesting question now that's a very good question. So for us that has been always vital in in building artscape. So neither myself nor my co-founder do we ever pretend to have come from the art world. We don't have the technical background in terms of academically in the art world, in the art market. I know the art market quite well as a collector and from my own kind of studies and curiosity and so forth and now building a sizable collection.
Speaker 2:But it's been very important to us to have anyone who's in a commercial role, commercially facing, to have come from the art world yeah, that has the connections, the network also the understanding right so we need to be sure that we do things with this intellectual integrity, Otherwise we are nothing, especially in a world as the art market, which is, you know, you need to know the context, Otherwise it goes off and that's what I've seen with a few of kind of competitors because you see the opportunity of the art market is interesting, but then they don't know anything about art and you will put very discordant kind of categories um yeah and representations, so so that's always been important.
Speaker 2:We we didn't apply the rule team-wide because finding a developer that's also from the art market narrows the field too much.
Speaker 1:Probably. Well, it sounds like you're basically a proper, true misfit. In a sense. You're not coming from this background, from this industry. You like it as a collector, but you've not really had a history with that.
Speaker 1:And this is one of the things that I've learned recently is some investors put too much accent on the founder being ingrained in the market and industry, but that's and I used to do that as well but that's not. I think. If you're, if you're the right type of founder that has the right type of attitude in growing a business, like you said, you hire people, you get people, you talk to people, you get mentors, you get a variety of people around you that give you that confidence to drive the ship in the right direction, right? But yeah, I feel that I'm smiling sometimes when I, when I, when I meet people that are coming from a completely different background and, uh, hopped in a different industry because I know how it feels, right, can feel like a bit of an imposter yeah, for sure, especially in the arts world, I feel that people are in a certain type of um how should I put it?
Speaker 1:um level of acceptance when it comes to outsiders and such um, but um, it sounds like you're heading the right direction and um how did you say on?
Speaker 2:on that I mean. I think an important thing is the idea of kind of founder product fit or founder market fit. But that doesn't necessarily have to mean that you've worked in that space.
Speaker 2:You really need to understand the product and or the market. So what we've done here is, I mean, and really ArtScape actually started almost as a hobby project and really Artescape actually started almost as a hobby project. So we were fed up as collectors of information being so discordant, so fragmented, not really centered on collectors. So we built something initially that we thought we would just share with some of our equally nerdy collector friends, and then the more we started digging into it because we were happy, both of both of both us, as as founders we were in our corporate careers, we were doing our thing. Art was the passion and that's yeah that's it we.
Speaker 2:Then we started to build this platform, which was going to be this little cute thing, saw that it it has actually is a huge market. The data came in told us that you know there's something more to this. Yeah, the more we started to build the idea, the more people said you're sitting on something big, you need to do this. And then basically everything exploded.
Speaker 1:we left our, our corporates and then we pursued it full time so it's not like yeah, it's not like you left your job and then scratched your your heads for a while. What are we gonna do?
Speaker 2:oh, this sounds like I'd love to be an entrepreneur. Yeah, okay, it wasn't. It wasn't like that.
Speaker 1:So it was it and it sounds like very similar. It's a very similar path, like Nikki and I, because Nikki and I started Jigsaw because we wanted to fix a problem internally with our own work as full-time employees, dug deeper into the data, research and such, we realized that there's not much of this problem solving in the Jira world. So we decided to build it and then we spent another year getting ingrained in the ecosystem and that market and realized we really love this.
Speaker 2:we want to focus on it full-time but again it sounds like it's kind of the same, uh, a gradual progression towards that, while you also gained a lot of knowledge and experience with you know how the art market works yeah, and equally as you guys, you had an insider understanding of the market, of the application, and therefore there is that kind of founder product, founder market fit, which I think is vital and what I like to look for or try to understand when I speak to founders what's their personal connection with it?
Speaker 1:what's their, what's their personal connection with it?
Speaker 2:so you're coming from um, from a corporate world, and artscape is your first business, your first founder business is it you had anything else before well, we did kind of start a crypto exchange in the heydays of 2017, 2017 when it was hot, oh yeah man, if that would have, if that would have worked out, I probably wouldn't be here yeah, well, you'd be like who beer beer misfit founders who?
Speaker 2:yeah, no, I mean, we, we had everything set up it. It was going to be a crypto exchange. It was really nice. We were literally moments from go live until our partner, who was running their business in Ethereum at the time, were wiped out in the market correction and so they went out of business overnight, essentially so, and they were, and because we were still obviously in our corporate jobs when we were thinking about this, when we're doing everything on the side, so we were gonna launch it, obviously, see that it's going to do well, and then you jump out it's crazy and then they yeah, that, that was it so how much time and energy have you invested in that?
Speaker 2:quite a bit. I mean, if it was the gold rush, right, like, if we have to say, a big gold rush, I think of our generation has been or is still in some sense, the crypto, crypto world. Um, there was a lot of money to be, to be made in that, um, especially these kind of financial products, exchanges and so forth, but also a lot of crash and burn. Uh, so well, I think a lot.
Speaker 1:Nowadays, 2024, a lot of people have been burned so much that I feel that even investors when they hear crypto project yeah, yeah, it's not anymore.
Speaker 2:The cryptocurrency.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, I'll invest all my money into into your project, but how much time you personally invested in getting that platform to a point where you were just about to launch, in months or?
Speaker 2:years. It was a good over six months.
Speaker 2:I would say that we were heavily invested, working a lot outside of office hours, going to meetings on the weekend and doing the designs and thinking and company structure, business modeling and stuff like this. So it was, let me say, say, a blow in that sense. But you know you, you also learn from that. So then it's okay, be careful who you're working with. Who's your supplier? Yeah, um, you know, because, because if you want to be quick to market, you you need a good, you need good partners, good suppliers, but they need to also be be stable and you need to be able to detach from them. Um, you know what is your ip? I mean, we can this is a whole kind of discussion on its own, um, but that really showed me that, like, okay, you have to be very careful with who who helps you kind of build stuff or whichever part they're helping with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're 100% right with that. Because the last thing, it's great when you can say well, I have a team of three, four, as my co-founding team, and this person has these skills and I have that skills and this person has the finances and this. But you're kind of like bottlenecking in a sense, because it's only that person that can do that thing and then it's the only that person that has the finances. So what happens if they just decide to step back?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and especially because none of us are hardcore technical founders. So my co-founder is much more. I mean, he understands really software development. I mean he's not a developer himself, but he understands it at depth. But when you are not yourself the developer, being able to judge that and and understand also how how any supplier works or what's there in this, in this sense it was also how they're, they were structured and how you know how they were running that business, that wasn't right on, but in general, no, you need to anyway kind of understand how do they work, how is the uh, how is the product being delivered?
Speaker 1:would you? Would you not? Did you not look for alternatives? Because you said you know, like the part, your partner, just like it was that situation with stuff, did you, given that you were about to push the button? To launch, did you not?
Speaker 2:try to be like where can we find the money? Well, they didn't do that for free, so we had.
Speaker 2:We obviously invested our money to get this prototype up running, um, and, and I think at that point we just you got very fatigued, um, I get it and because there was this really, really strong market correction I don't know how much you were looking at cryptos at the time, but there was a lot of losses and you saw it was one of the big wake-up calls. Obviously, crypto has had its ups and downs much before that as well.
Speaker 1:It was in 2017 when that happened. Was it when those big wallets crashed? I?
Speaker 2:don't know, yeah exactly, there was a couple that just shut down and yeah but like uh, ethereum ripple, all of the, all of the big coins at the time, um, big, not bit, but also bit, uh came crashing through the came crashing through the floor. It was a very big correction. And you know, and and people, and it was still there was the wild, wild west, people were doing icos and and and playing with, playing with money all over. So I think in some sense it was also good that we didn't, that it didn't happen.
Speaker 1:So I think it would have been a wild ride yeah, because this has been a wild ride up until recently yeah, um so it would have. You might have been a lot older yeah, by this point with all of that, but in the same time it could have also potentially been like super big. But no, I understand if you put, if you put that's what I love now like it's more so this is my passion, right?
Speaker 2:so crypto was a pure opportunity. Like I'm not particularly like, I think there's a very sound applications of blockchain. So blockchain the technology is great and and a lot of the applications are can really have the potential to make a big impact on our on our society in many, in many fields. Um, but it's not something that I'm burning about yeah like.
Speaker 2:The fascination obviously is there, the curiosity is there, but it's not the thing that I kind of love in that sense, while art is my passion and now I made it basically into my business that's what you like, what, that's what you need, right, um, so you're in a good position to do that, right like?
Speaker 1:I feel like I'm now in a good position to do the same thing and focus. We were talking about this, yeah, um, and it's, you know, if the the more you can wake up in the morning and start working, and it doesn't feel like work, yeah, it doesn't feel like yeah this again yeah and you wake up with it, with a passion and with the energy, the better yeah we're gonna be perfect.
Speaker 1:So it's gonna. You know, it's gonna have those days of eye roll, especially with um art, what you call it art uh, like galleries.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the investment galleries, the investment galleries, especially with those, because they sound a drag. But yeah, it seems like you're working in the environment that you want to practice of your um and uh analysis, research, uh and deep dives into data and information. Nowadays, yes, I'm I'm quite excited with at this stage of of artscape's journey. I mean now we're we're sort of over three years since we incorporated um okay you know we we have almost 7 000 collectors on the platform we're starting to have data finally, which means I get to kind of run with that a bit.
Speaker 2:So we're we're kind of launching some, some series of analytical content customer success and all of that stuff, yeah, yeah but, but also but also thinking about okay, when is the?
Speaker 2:without becoming obviously investment advice, but how much can we look at artworks with tangible insights and applications for collectors or investors, especially when you're starting out, when you don't know what to look at but what you want to buy, and especially if you're buying, I mean. So people who are investing in art tends to be across the spectrum, right. So it's kind of from pure passion to pure um, to pure opportunity, right, the financial or wealth opportunity. Uh, most collectors are somewhere in the middle, all right, because it's an important financial transaction. Anything else, I think, will be foolish to say. But so you're looking across this spectrum and how can I help you make the sound choices?
Speaker 2:Again, building a collection that's going to last over time, and a bit of rolling the car off the sales parking lot, which how can I help to guide you last over time. And, and you know, a bit of rolling the car off the the sales parking lot, which how can I help to guide you? Which is the car to to kind of collect that isn't gonna lose 40 the moment you roll off the curb? It's a bit the same that we're thinking about in in terms of the art. So what are the things that are adding kind of value? They're going to retain its value, to have liquidity as such as as an asset class, right, because otherwise you, you know you can buy it for the pure passion of it. But if you're wanting to kind of retain value, that needs to be something that is considered, and that's a bit the part that the analytics is getting into also telling the story of the art market from the collector standpoint, which is which is something I'm really intrigued by how much the collector and investor words interlock.
Speaker 1:Let me let me explain why I'm asking this. Because, in my mind, a collector buys, is super passionate about that piece of art and um acquires it not with the intent of selling it for profit right necessarily right when I think collector. Collector is someone that collects, not gives away. Right in my mind, right yes yes, uh, whereas an investor investing in something with the purpose of generating um profitability at a later stage? Right, that's what we investors do most of the time right.
Speaker 1:How, in the arts world, how kind of like tight these two definitions are? Or do you also see a lot of collectors that have absolutely no interest in the monetary value and the monetary value growth of that piece of art in the future, and also investors that you know? Maybe they like or don't like the, the, the art, but they see it as a valuable asset that they can profiteer from at a later stage?
Speaker 2:yes, so I think one of the interesting bits about the art market is that it's it's almost taboo to talk about the the investment angle in general really because it should be for the passion.
Speaker 2:But then, sure, passion, passion. But then if I'm buying something for 10k, you know that is. That is a sizable amount for anyone. A 1k is a sizable amount, um, but that's the kind of ranges that we're often playing with. You can buy great quality work, so the the price versus quality doesn't have to be always in lock, lock step. You can find amazing works that are are much more affordable than that, of course, but you are still playing with a high value item.
Speaker 2:So that's why I say complete disregard for the price and its ability to retain that value is just foolish, in my opinion, because maybe it's just going unsaid, right, everyone is thinking it, but no one is saying it. Um, and I'm not necessarily saying okay, we should all say it, it's just if it's on all our minds, why don't I help you see it? So that's where the, the analytics, comes in. That's why also, I mean, that's why the whole bank account analogy comes in right, I'm helping you understand your portfolio and how it's developing over time the value of the works, building something that lasts, so while and I don't necessarily, and I don't collect necessarily, for with an intent, I built quite a big collection. At this point We've sold two works and I I miss both of them.
Speaker 1:I probably will buy them um did you make a profit?
Speaker 2:yes, the the the sale was to finance other acquisitions which were, which is what I wanted to do at the time, um, but I still still miss them.
Speaker 2:There's a there's a very strong kind of sentimental attachment yes yes, yes, um, but what you don't want to do is lose value. And a lot, and, unfortunately, a lot of times what we see not all of them and I'm not going to name any names, but a lot of times what we see with these kind of investment galleries is they'll use this kind of art as investment language, as a sales agenda. Right, but then, because it's not backed by solid market analysis and understanding, okay, where's the liquidity of this artist? And thinking about art as a regulated asset, as you would within a regulated asset, you do see cases where it does come off the parking lot 40% less. So someone trying to sell it in a couple years later, it's, it's, it's very difficult and or it's not really possible unless at a loss. And that's what we're, what we're where we're hoping to, to kind of clear out the, the forest, if you will, um to to, to add some clarity to that yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:And regulate the goddamn art. I'm saying that but, like I'm, I'm just listening. I know nothing about the art industry, so I might be saying something very controversial by saying regulated god damn it.
Speaker 2:Wouldn't you also feel more safe as?
Speaker 1:an outsider?
Speaker 2:yes, but that's what I'm saying you know people had to abide by certain standards. Yeah, of course 100, and that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:You know people had to abide by certain standards yeah, of course 100, and that's why I'm saying it from my perspective, just listening to to um the, the reason and the um kind of like the motives behind why that that would um need to happen and I completely agree if I would go into. That's why I've been saying away from from crypto for quite a while. I've tried a couple of things in the past but, like recently, it's just because it's not regulated. The entire thing is is a massive you know excuse my language type of show yeah, and you know you put money and you know you're.
Speaker 1:You know they say, oh, don't invest money that you can't lose, but at the end of the day you want to. You don't want to just throw money away.
Speaker 2:If I want to throw, money away with the art, right? So you put it here in the exactly fireplace and stuff so it's the same.
Speaker 1:I suppose the same with art. Right, you don't, because it would be very daunting for me to get into art because I know, don't know much about artists and this and that. But even if, like, we were talking about cinema, film gear and me investing in a lot of this, the market for this is so big and established and there's so many manufacturers that kind of like compete with each other and it's becomes like a spec thing and a brand thing and so on. But there's there's these, these traits that are really well established and you know that the price, price to value ratio is most of the time there and you have a lot of people to talk you through. Yeah, um, but it's that because of the competition of the products making and the, the manufacturers and so on, which is different than you know, regulating a market which is, which it's not specs based that we were talking earlier and so on.
Speaker 1:Um, around the regulated market that is not spec based and it's pure thoughts and people's opinions and um, how they interpret that piece of art.
Speaker 2:Um, but if you don't regulate it, then you know you might buy something that two people, three people, tell you that that's a really good investment and it's actually not, because five years down the line, you lost half of your money, so, luckily enough, anyway, what's interesting to see is that the market anyway guides you to, to showing what is what is good, like a lot of the, the analytics I'm looking at now is, you know, I'm controlling for a lot of the, the same variable so we're looking at now is, you know, I'm controlling for a lot of the same variables. So we're looking at Damien Hirst, for example, one of the biggest living artists, british artist, and you know I can look at artworks that are very similar produced by him, and I can see which one was more popular, which one has performed better. So the market tends to also reflect the taste performed better. So the market tends to also reflect the taste. Then you do, and there, and there is a reason, certain works sell very high at auction or in any other, sell very high full stop is because they have inherent value, and that is what are you adding to art, art history, art, historic conversation commentary.
Speaker 2:How much are you touching on this topic? What have other people said on it? On this topic before you, there's a lot of.
Speaker 2:Obviously, being the first to do something is about pushing boundaries, and how much are you able to do that in your, your artistic practice and that is what's going to be rewarded yeah and it's enough to either have that curiosity yourself or be willing to go on this dive and you start to entangle and and also just even from from an outsider perspective, you start to see what are the, what are the trends, who are there, what are the artistic movements? If you're curious, if you're wanting to understand why this artwork sold high, you will be able to start to pull out certain characteristics but with an asterisk.
Speaker 1:You need to have a bit of that analytical and research focus mindset in a sense.
Speaker 2:But I would say that for any investment. That's why I think art is an investment class. But just like you wouldn't just say, okay, I'm gonna invest in ABC stock because I like the sound of ABC, who doesn't like ABC? It's the beginning of the alphabet. What have you if you don't know? Okay, and then and then you realize they're loss making, they're over indebted. Uh, there's the. The ceo is is off in hawaii.
Speaker 1:Like, if you don't do your research with any asset, you're gonna be making mistakes yeah, true, um, but I think again, I think people need to understand that art in order for people not to get kind of like a bit just taken away by what. I'm missing, the bloody saying. What's the saying? Missing the bloody saying. What's the saying? Um, swept away, let's say swept away by, um, the the market and by beautiful pieces and this, and that, yes, you do should have the emotional connection. But I can see how easy it is in the art world as not being a kind of like regulated and a kind of like a investment market, in a sense regulated investment market, how you can start getting swayed into certain pieces that are quite risky yeah it might be beautiful to you, they might have a sentimental attachment, but you know, you might just invest in it and never even think about oh, let me research this artist, let me figure out what this means.
Speaker 1:Where am I buying it from? Who are these people? And so on.
Speaker 2:But that's where where these kind of objective measures come in. So you start to say, okay, did he or she go to to an art school? Do they have the technical background? Because part of it is also the, the craftsmanship itself. You understanding as an artist of art history, like, did they study art? What kind of group or solo shows have they done with? Which kind of galleries? Which gallery is representing them?
Speaker 2:Um, have they been collected by institution? Can I find this artist in the collection of the tate or of? Uh, have they been in the royal academy? Are they a royal? Like a mission? Um, those are start to be abstracted from the taste, like, do I like this piece or not, doesn't matter if this artist, you know, is you're looking essentially at their, at their cv. In some sense, you're, you're also investing in the artist. Yeah, um, that's, that's also what you're doing by supporting kind of the cultural production. You're supporting the artist by, by becoming a collector, by becoming an investor, which is what I like as well, that there is a very strong philanthropic angle as well to it. It's not, you know, you're not collecting a share certificate stock investment.
Speaker 2:You hang it on your wall like hey, nothing wrong with share certificates for stock in startups okay no more and more stock certificates on walls, please.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think that the I mean we touched quite a bit on the kind of the the blue ocean idea and this idea of building a startup, which I think is interesting, and especially for us, this idea of building something where there wasn't something before, like defining, and in some sense I think that's part of innovation and like yeah this idea of okay, you have wealth management, you have art, you have the wider kind of collectible passion, asset, space, and then merging it into one, it becomes like uncharted territory so you haven't had any kind of like north star in terms of samples or other companies that have done this, other people that have done this in the past or competitors or anything like that.
Speaker 2:So I don't want. I think no founder should ever say there aren't competitors. There are competitors, but the same way that we're doing it, which is focused on the collector at this kind of product depth. So you do have players that do, let me say, your portfolio management or collection management. You do have, obviously, valuers who just do artwork valuations. You have, of course, insurance, but you don't have anyone who's done a sort of digital platform, the thinking behind a leads and to potential partners and so on what you're building and what your business is.
Speaker 1:What's the reaction, the reason why. I'm asking is because there can be a danger, or a blessing in a sense, um, of getting into this blue ocean type of space where this, this new thing that hasn't been done at this type of setup, and so on before is. There's a danger of people not really understanding what is it that you're building and offering. Or, on the polar opposite, people will be like have that aha moment. Oh, how on earth did we not have this up until now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's funny that you mentioned exactly that, because it's really like a lot of people don't understand it, which I think has been one of the key challenges I think of this founder journey is exactly this is that it's you kind of get it at the surface, you think it's a very esoteric niche, it's not a big market.
Speaker 2:Um, you know who, who are all these people who are interested in art, but then you start to look at it, you start to develop this and you know you see people allocating part of their, their, their income or their wealth into, into art. It's a, it's a also an impact investment for a lot of people. Um, but yeah, but that hurdle of getting over people to understand it has been, has been a really big challenge. But that's where we're trying to, also where it helps to do kind of comparison. So that's where when I start to say things like, oh, it's like a bank account for art, you start to have images and those images are quite close to what we actually are. So so I start to help to frame it and I think for anyone who's building or are in this kind of space where they feel like they're doing something very different from what's been before in a different way. Is this idea also of the comparisons helping to?
Speaker 2:paint the pictures, and we've iterated a lot on that shares, um, and and we've iterated a lot on that. I mean, I think in in a very pure sense, we're also sort of an operating system for a collector, like all the services, like we're sort of your microsoft for collectors. You have all these attachments right. So it's not, it's not just a bank account, because then you have the services, you have the advisory, you have these other attachments to it. But still this idea of, okay, it's my financial platform, it's my bank account, it's my revolute for art, you start to understand it, and so that's kind of how we've.
Speaker 2:We've gone through a few cycles of trying to iterate exactly on how do we define it, how do we help people understand? And I don't know if we've yet arrived there. I think that's an ongoing thing and it's it's about understanding what. What does the investor, the person you're speaking to, what are they going to resonate with? Then, on the flip side, every collector or someone who's looking at art that have seen art scape has been like, wow, how has this not happened before? And that's when you, that's when you are happy as a founder.
Speaker 2:That's when you're like, okay, we're doing something that uh, that, that that resonates and and you know. And then you start to get kind of unsolicited feedback I love what you're doing. A sudden you and you release. It looks so much better. Yeah, you're just like, oh, this is what I live for that's you need to make those people advocates yeah, yeah, turning them into ambassadors, yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:Um, no, but that is. That is one of the most. That's a cliche. What did you just said? Now, it's a cliche, right, which is every founder that has an idea and that have implemented a very complete package of a product in a space that's not so familiar, right? Because it's a different thing that, if you say, well, I have a digital office type of suite of tools like Google Suite.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or an HR SaaS.
Speaker 1:Or that, yeah, so it's different. But the challenge is, how do you give that aha moment with your value proposition while also not completely losing the basically what is it? That thing is is right, the product that you're building and in the past I've been so pulled into what has all of these cool bells and whistles.
Speaker 1:So on the website where we have our tagline, I want to mention all of these things and you come up with this lengthy sausage of yeah, yeah of a tagline for your business or a mission statement or whatever, um, and you realize that no one understands when they read it, when they visit your website, and and then you have to figure out how do we cut down on that. And sometimes, sometimes the best marketing strategy is don't have to say anything about what the features or what the absolute value of that is Right, because there's so many teachings out there that say, you know, highlight the problem, do this, do that, this, do that which you know. It's kind of like what you're starting with, but highlight the problem, the want, and so on. Sometimes, as you say, the easiest thing to get to that aha moment is like compare it to something yeah where you, where the the uber of of this, where the you know I had.
Speaker 1:I have a friend that has putting him on the spot now has a business in London that have these vans and they're mobile barbers and you book on the phone and they come to you park and you go in get a haircut and so on and I always when I refer to him and show other people his business, I'm like the uber for barbers yeah, yeah, right, you get it.
Speaker 2:You get it instantly, without knowing you. You got it. Yeah, then. Then there will be new answers, for sure he's gonna be like oh, why did? Did you say only Uber? It's much more than that, but it helps to give the image.
Speaker 1:The one thing that I recommend all founders should stay away from is just being too generic, like to soften it so much that you have no idea what they're talking about, what they're saying and and you know when you say we're the x of that, right, it makes sense because people instantly go like we're the netflix of this.
Speaker 1:They immediately go and know what netflix is and what it does and it's like oh, I understand it, but if you on the other side, um, you say um, for example, we solve work as an example as a tagline I was like you do what?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, what do you exactly do? That's a big thing, that's work.
Speaker 1:What you mean, what kind of work? What?
Speaker 2:how do you solve what exactly you're referring to? Specific application of that comparison yeah company to what you're, what you're doing and and you're like worlds apart, like this how do they? What do you mean? This is like this for that? Yeah, like if the comparison comparison has to be close enough that the application makes sense so that you can draw a natural parallel and then start to be, but then yet to be close enough that the picture that you've planted in the receiver's head is close enough to what your business does.
Speaker 2:Because then at least you've opened the door and people are mentally preparing for what you're about to say.
Speaker 1:And there's no perfect, no um recipe. I was recently talking on this podcast with wes bush, um bestseller author of product led growth.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you've um, yeah, yeah, I love that episode um and if you've seen it, he's.
Speaker 1:He said that the word the the hardest thing is not naming his book is with the tagline in his book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, because that's the value proposition, right, that you need to do, and I think it's the same way with companies.
Speaker 1:You know, the hardest thing is not naming your company. I feel that sometimes that's so easy because we come up with these. You know very creative names and so on. I think the hardest thing is how do I make people understand what is it that I do? Yeah yeah, um, and especially in a kind of like blue ocean green field type of situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but, and that's why I think you have to iterate. So it's all about context, it's all about the purpose, right? So we've never said to probably any client like over the Revolut fart. I said that to to investors because they will understand. Okay, yeah, revolut has the, the whole features of things. It's innovative, it's techy, it's it's easy to use, the UX is nice and then so I'm giving you all those images which apply to artscape as well. But you know, to to a mainstream user, I'm going to say you know, this is, this is the platform to help you access the art market, for example in the future, you'll be able to say as a tagline um where, uh, where your um bank account for art, while others are your crypto wallets.
Speaker 2:Exactly, we've become the comparison point. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Don't go crypto wallets for your art. Go with a proper, solid bank account.
Speaker 2:Exactly, wear those people Exactly. Awesome, exactly, we're those people, exactly.
Speaker 1:Awesome. So right, I end with three questions which you probably already know.
Speaker 2:First one, a quote that you love. Yes, I was thinking about this a bit and the thing that I've had kind of back of my mind since I came across since I came across it really was this idea of what doesn't challenge you, doesn't change you. And actually when, when I, when I heard about the questions, um, for the postcard I saw it on the other episode I was like okay, I have to actually look up where this came from, because I've had, I saw it out of context and I was like I really like that because I apply it to my professional journey and you know, it's about this idea of personal growth, about pushing yourself, about yeah boundary, like expanding your boundaries really, and and that's going to help to change you, to grow you.
Speaker 2:And actually I, I then did my, did my research and was applied to fitness. Uh, it was some um, it's a, it's a well-known kind of fitness coach or something like this, and it's about you know the physical challenge and that's how you also grow kind of performance or physical performance but for me it was always rather a professional thing and this idea of you know, do stuff that challenges you as a way to help to grow you, and I think nothing challenges you more than being a founder.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I feel so old and wise after failing all of these businesses, definitely all of these businesses. Uh, definitely no it. It is honestly, you know, um talking here. I'm talking um shit about people and stuff, but uh, they don't know who I'm talking about because I'm not saying names.
Speaker 1:But you know, even when I look at some of my acquaintances and so on, it's consuming social media and constant tv and not using your professional at least your professional life to challenge yourself, to put yourself in those challenging positions and having this kind of like flat line type of growth. And the thing is like a lot of people want that because it's like well, I just work. I work for the money. I don't care about that.
Speaker 1:I don't put zero emotions or feelings or anything like that into that. And you know, my focus is my family, my personal. Fair enough, but what tends to happen is do you grow right? Do you grow as a person, as an individual, as a human being, as a mind and soul, if your life line looks like this yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:I think it's pretty impossible and I know I have friends that you know seem that they're exactly the same as when we were teenagers and I'm like you haven't changed a lot and they're like you changed a lot yeah and in a sense, you know, it sounds like they're saying it that's a bad thing to hurt me or to basically to to poke yeah, yeah but in my mind, in my, in my mind, I'm like, oh, that's awesome, I'm good, I'm so happy that you say that I changed a lot.
Speaker 2:That's what I want. Yeah, exactly exactly book book, um, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I mean I think they are the the obvious good ones. I mean like being startup hard thing, about hard things, like all those classes that I think are fantastic. But I thought I'd bring something that has had like a very concrete impact on me, which is a book called who by Jeff Smart and Randy Street, and it's about actually hiring people. So as a founder, you know, as a founder, you know you have your idea, you have your business, but you don't achieve anything unless you have the right people yeah and so what this book does is give you, basically, a methodological approach to hiring and to to avoid the the biases that we all put in.
Speaker 2:So hiring someone that's going to be nice to take out for lunch and to to go for after work drinks is not the same. That's going to bring your company from where you are today to where you want to be tomorrow yeah and this book helps to get rid of basically those kind of personal biases, gives you a structured way to approach hiring so you make sure you stay objective rather than subjective.
Speaker 1:I think it sounds like an amazing book for those that want to build businesses of 100 million and 10 million, 100 uh annual recurring revenue and so on, or valuation, whatever um I was. I think gary v at one point said you know um, you can get your. You can get your company on your own as a solo founder to a million um annual recurring revenue.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's ways to do that, but if you want to go beyond that, you have to have people Like that's. You rely on people to do that, and I think that's very true. I also have people in my network founders, co-founders that don't want anyone, and you know they grow the business to probably a couple of million in um annual recurring revenue, but they just don't want to work with anyone.
Speaker 1:They don't want the the bureaucracy of then the having to set up culture, structures, value, company values and so on, and there it's just that the two of them that know each other really well and work with each other really well, and that's what they're happy with and that's, you know, perfectly fine, if that's what that's what you want, there will be a plateau eventually, exactly because, like, you just cannot split yourself in that many places.
Speaker 2:Yeah, once you reach certain several million in in revenue and, depending on the industry, in some industries might be way faster than than even reaching a million where you need to hire people yeah customer support, communication, sales, this, that, that, um so, but that sounds like a really good book for those that do want to take their businesses beyond, yeah, and they don't want to be just a solopreneur yes, yes, I think for anyone, regardless of your motivation, really, because, because it's about taking away your personal biases, like as is, because, also, they're like most of us you learn as you go right and you, you take an intuitive approach and and a lot of hiring, whether it's in a corporate or in a in a startup setting.
Speaker 2:Of course you try to say, okay, is this person going to fit my corporate company culture and that is part of it right, and can I see myself getting along with this person? Yes, but you also need to understand their professional journey, their ability as professionals to contribute to your organization because, anyway, culture that's what you also assess through that, because part of culture is, you know, are we seeing? Are we seeing the north star? The same way, are we driven together to drive to this mission? Do you like the mission and that's what you get out of an objective process rather than okay this person likes scuba diving.
Speaker 2:I like scuba diving.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about indonesia that's how I used to get into partnerships with with people, and was hey you like that? Oh, you seem to be excited about that. Let's, let's, become co-founders. Um, really good. Uh, probably something that I should read as well. I haven't heard about the who book.
Speaker 2:I should probably read that.
Speaker 1:It's a short, easy read that's what I want to hear. My add does not allow me to read large and complex books, um and uh, habit that you advocate for uh, habit.
Speaker 2:I was thinking about this as well. So I think one of the things that fascinates me as well is is this whole idea of how can you improve your, your productivity, mental performance and so forth and, according to spotify wrapped, I'm one of the key listeners to huberman lab. So you need a an advocate for huberman here. I am, um, but you know, in that journey of listening to that, I'm trying to also play with things. That was going to help me, um yeah, being a productive, uh, person, basically, and I think one of the things that I've and I was I was thinking about this from the lens of what has had the biggest impact on me so far, of trialing these different protocols, and you know, to some people might sound sound boring, but actually for me, the idea of reducing the alcohol that I drink I wasn't an alcoholic before, but you know art and nice parties go hand in hand and you know you end up going to gallery openings and things like this but that has had an enormous impact on me, something I didn't expect. Now I'm not, I haven't gone to zero, but it's about moderation. So it's about doing the things you you want to do and then live your life in a balance. But you know I do not.
Speaker 2:It is a toxin. It does impact your liver it's one of the things that you know deteriorate and shorten your life span. It has all kinds of implications across your body. But that doesn't mean you have to give it up. It's just be conscious that you're consuming a toxin and you know, be wary of that. And so you know, I do still have my, my, my wines. I love wine, I will keep drinking wine, but I do it in, in, in moderation and as a way, and then I also appreciate it a lot more yeah, and and very true yeah yeah, because then if you because I, you know it's it's so easy, especially in London, when there are after work drinks.
Speaker 2:Let's go to that. Someone offers you something and it's almost part of the London life. And you don't even really think twice about it.
Speaker 1:I've been part of that lifestyle.
Speaker 2:We all have, and I didn't realize until I started to be more mindful of it how much it actually impacted me. Like now I, I sleep much better, I'm more productive, my, my kind of temper is much more, I'm much more calm, right? So you, you, you, you, yeah, the sleep has been the biggest one. And also like I wake up naturally at seven on the weekend, like just because I'm and I, I'm waking up rested yeah because I and I, I perform better.
Speaker 1:I perform better physically, mentally and isn't it lovely to be able to wake up over the weekend, when it's your day off, and just wake up earlier and just enjoy life in general, rather than sleeping and being hangover until 12 or something like that, and by the time you're feeling normal again it's evening, and you're like, okay, well, the day has passed.
Speaker 2:Day of suffering, exactly yeah no, I agree and I've.
Speaker 1:I've done the same, but not willingly like I've. Uh, I've significantly cut on alcohol. Maybe I have. If I have, maybe because I'm a beer person, so I I love um lager beer. That's my poison um. But maybe if I have two, two beers, three beers per month max.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, that is quite a yeah and that's, and that's probably going to be two or three beers in one evening in in a month or or even less. And the reason why is um I have chronic headache pains like migraines, and alcohol intensifies that significantly. So if I if I drink, if I'm not feeling well, if I have a headache, um, which happens often and I drink alcohol, it's going to um amplify.
Speaker 1:Or if, if it's super mild and I'm not feeling it, not feeling the headache and I drink, it just skyrocket so that kind of like forced me into not drinking that much so, and now I got used to it and I'm now talking. I'm like, oh, it's friday, I should probably have a beer. I want to have a beer. I'll have a goddamn beer.
Speaker 2:I haven't had one in a long time, um, but it's about the regulation, about the moderation. So I I never liked this and I also think we're in a big fad of you must do this and and you know everything and anything you see okay, eat more spinach. And then the next person say oh, but spinach, if you eat too much, it's gonna make you into a carrot, like you just become into a carrot.
Speaker 1:You said yes, yes, yes that's. That's how the cause and effect works yes, spinach and you transform into a carrot. What if you eat apples? Would you transform into pear?
Speaker 2:yeah, definitely there you go.
Speaker 1:No, but it's about the, it's about the, the moderation right and I think it's about adjusting things that improve your life quality yeah and that that, for me, has been one of the one of the big levers recently you know it's and it sounds so simple oh yeah, be moderate, and so on, but it's so hard. So hard because we are creatures of pleasures. Yeah, and it it is very hard for absolutely everyone, I think, um yeah, not gonna lie, in the beginning I quite struggled, like you.
Speaker 1:You would go to, because the afterward drinks don't stop, right, it's just you choose not to or to have a fizzy drink or a glass of water and in the beginning you feel awkward about it, but then after a certain point you become fine with it, you become a normal thing.
Speaker 2:I don't miss it at all, I don't. You know, I'm not missing it in the setting.
Speaker 1:I think people need more negative reinforcement or pain Because, like, look like for you. You probably took, like needed some a lot of motivation and a certain level of discipline and such. But that's what a lot of people miss the motivation and discipline, especially when you're like the amount of alcohol that I used to drink in the past where I had stressful periods and you just want to unwind, detach and just I need a beer I need after work I need a pint or two a beer.
Speaker 1:So I'm gonna go to the pub with my buddies and I'm just gonna you know so and it becomes like this, relief for certain things yeah and and everything like, even everything, chocolate, sweets, this that sometimes because of stress, because of you know you eat more, you you try to hit that dopamine um level in your addictions and stuff um.
Speaker 1:So it takes and it's very hard to use discipline and to be disciplined in this and that and to break the cycle negative reinforcement works, like for me, for example, because I've been getting for a couple of years these headaches constantly, like I know that I'm not gonna touch alcohol very often because I hate the the headaches, the crazy, not being able to look at bright lights, having to be under the, the blanket and so on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think yeah, more people should I don't know, maybe just I don't know do do something that get get a buzzer that uh shocks you, or something like that, and put it, turn it up to 10, and if you feel crap the next day because you drink a lot, just buzz yourself, uh, and, and you know that you get yourself buzzed every single time. You, I don't know do something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, have you tried cold exposure speaking?
Speaker 1:I've not, no, no yeah, you should.
Speaker 2:I think you would like it yeah I've I've seen.
Speaker 1:I've seen a lot of um athletes and and kind of like influencers that I follow and I and I like doing that, but I've never. I'm terrible with cold. I love heat like that but when it comes to cold temperatures, I'm terrible, but I would definitely do it yeah because it basically flips that.
Speaker 2:So I used to hate cold and I was like there's no way I'm going to do this, there's no way in the world that I'm going to do this. And then I said okay, but now I'm going to do this as a challenge. I'm going to do this. Basically, I think I just said okay, I'm gonna do this for 10 days. See how I feel. Hated it, hated it, hated it, hated it by sort of day. Eight, nine. You're like actually there is something to this and you start to moderate your temperature much better. You feel an alertness. That is, that is great.
Speaker 2:Like you, you feel like you've had three shots of coffee without doing anything. Your mood goes up. You have all these kind of side effects that you didn't anticipate or doesn't seem at surface logical to you.
Speaker 2:But you get them by by challenging yourself and it's a bit about what you were saying like this idea of breaking the cycle right, like I had this mental blocking of saying I cannot handle or stand the cold, therefore I will not do it. But actually by doing it, my ability to handle cold has improved and like the way you you regulate your body temperature and your blood circulation improves yeah, yeah, that's that's.
Speaker 1:I can see how that's happening, because whenever I take like a super cold shower because I don't know, the heating is not working or stuff like you just feel like so alive all of a sudden.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's the aliveness, like just a punch in the face.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for the conversation yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1:I really enjoyed this um, although we did talk quite a lot more about and dive a bit more in the arts um industry and what you're doing there, um more so than your entrepreneur hardships and so on, although we've touched on that a bit, I feel that it's a really interesting topic to me because it's so unfamiliar, and it's really interesting to hear you talk about what's going on there and how the market works and investors and collectors and the art landscape. So thank you so much for that insightful session.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you for having me, thank you for letting me babble on my passion.
Speaker 1:Well, that's why we're here and thank you also for talking to me about because this is one of the things that I've never really understood is where certain drives come from, certain character traits, and it does sound the, that the you know kind of like the, the curiosity of, of research and really understanding how things um function, um, and the cause and effect and this kind of like nerdiness around. This is basically what's what triggered your career sorry, your career path and and your interest into numbers and this kind of very analytical yeah work, so thank you for that um next time I have a quite a big analyst on on the show I will.
Speaker 2:I'll have to listen to the episode as well yeah, I'll make sure that I talk.
Speaker 1:I mentioned that. I know where your source of um I know why you like this. I know why you're like this.
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you so much no, thank you so much for having me.
