Misfit Founders
Misfit Founders
Why is Pain So Normalised in Women's Healthcare? Pioneering Scientist Dr. Claudia Uncovers The Shocking Truth About Chronic Pelvic Pain Conditions
This week, I chat to Dr. Claudia, the founder of Bloom Health, a revolutionary new science-backed service tackling the massively overlooked field of chronic pelvic pain in Women's Health.
As a scientist who suffers with symptoms herself, Claudia was astounded to learn there has been no research at all in this field. We discuss the shocking bias against women in medical research, and the societal taboos that still exist around conditions such as PCOS, Endometriosis, Vulvodynia and Vaginismus.
Claudia shares her transformative journey from academia to the forefront of women's health innovation, and how she bridges this gap with her work.
Claudia leads us through the inception of Bloom Health, from the highs of being oversubscribed with customers, to the challenges of raising financial investment for Fem-Tech.
Claudia's aspirations for Bloom Health resonate with the importance of continued research and destigmatization of conditions like vulvodynia. We delve into the power of books in shaping our mental health and strategies, and the role that lifestyle choices play in our overall well-being. This episode promises more than just an interview; it's a revelation of how we've still got a long way to go before systemic prejudices against women are removed. Claudia is truly on a mission to change the world.
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I realized writing papers for the rest of my life wouldn't necessarily give the impact that I wanted to provide to women, who were lacking these interventions. When we look at women's health or conditions that primarily affect women, there isn't much data. Clinical trials up until the 90s in the US, I believe, were only carried out of men. All the common drugs that we have now that we use all the time, they haven't been really tested, at least so far, on women. So if you think about it, it's crazy.
Speaker 2:That's bizarre. That's a very shocking revelation to me.
Speaker 1:So I think there was a bit of an initial period of shock, an initial period of frustration, but also, how can I help? So I thought, why not? I mean, if I'm not going to do it, no one else is. So that's how it started.
Speaker 2:Claudia, your name is Claudia. Do you pronounce it Claudia?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, in Italian, because I feel like the English version is Claudia.
Speaker 1:Do you get?
Speaker 2:aggravated. When people call you claudia. No, I'm like here for too many years. My name is a bit like um, I'm uh. Some people call me b-roll and I'm like, okay, that's fine, b-roll is fine. But when you call me Biro, I feel that that's a bit Like Byron, like Lord Byron yeah. I feel that that's a bit of a stretch, because my name is pronounced Biro.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Biro In Romanian. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for joining me.
Speaker 1:Thank you for inviting me. Excited to be here.
Speaker 2:It would be great to get a been watching. You've been watching the podcast before I met you, which is interesting because I think that I've met quite a few people recently and told them about the show and watched the show and then been on the show, but you've seen that before we met. Okay, cool, that's awesome. What do you think of it? It's like no comment. Maybe let's start with a quick intro of who you are and, uh, what's your company all about?
Speaker 1:so thank you so much for having me. Uh, in terms of who I am, uh, I guess I wear different hats. The first one, and the most important one, a recent one, is as a founder and ceo bloom health. Bloom health is a health tech company that provides support for people who live with chronic pelvic pain, which is essentially an umbrella term for many conditions like endometriosis, vulvodynia, vaginismus, fibroids and many others, and our aim is to provide that long-term support that has been desperately lacking in the area. In my past life, I did a PhD developing digital treatments for people with vulvar pain.
Speaker 1:So very similar to, I guess the company now the current business now, and that's when I started to see actually the trends in research and the lack of research and prompted me to start a business later on.
Speaker 2:It's funny that you say in your past life, because it kind of feels like a progression, like I wouldn't even call it growing up, but transitioning into a business in a sense, from your PhD and your research. Where are you originally from?
Speaker 1:Italy.
Speaker 2:Italy. Okay, and you moved to UK for this PhD, or did you move before the PhD?
Speaker 1:No, I moved for my undergrad, so I've been here a long time, a few years, yeah. So I was 18 when I moved. Okay, I did my undergrad in the North York, then I moved to the Southeast London to do my master's in health psychology, which is basically psychology applied to medical conditions. Then I worked a couple of years in research, then the phd, then worked again, then went back to uh, to the origins and doing you know, pelvic pain research and care so when you say worked, you mean worked in research or and.
Speaker 2:Because I know nothing about this research world, so you need to treat me like a child and probably a lot of the audience as well, because we're not, um, we're not from this world. When you say work in research, do you, is there, like jobs advertised and um, you get, you know, paid for the work that you do and all of these things. Because when I think research, I I think a lot of you know the stuff that you do for your phd and university where it's not an action like, it's not a full-time paid job yeah, yeah, I mean, it depends so in terms of what I did, but of course there there's many other types of research positions.
Speaker 1:What happened is I did my master's. Of course that was just master's, and then after that it was a research position. So as a scientist, right, you're attached to a grant.
Speaker 1:Usually in a university. You're paid, you're a research scientist associate, whatever that is, and it's yeah, it's a research job you conduct research for specific to a grant. In my case it was HIV research. We wanted to test the intervention an intervention that was cognitive behavioral therapy, so a type of psychological support whether it could help people with HIV in terms of adherence, so how they take, how often they take the medication, taking it as prescribed, so improving outcomes in that area. And it worked a couple of years. But I wanted to go back to the PhD. For the PhD, I mean, I don't want to go too much into it in terms of, like, how the pathways are. You can do, I guess, a couple of things. You can apply for a position that is advertised in a university. So, for example, a professor secured some money and with some of that money, in a specific field they advertise a PhD and then you're paid for that right there's a studentship.
Speaker 1:The other way is that you pay for everything fees and whatever. The other way is that you pay for everything fees and whatever um, living, yeah, you need to have some money, obviously, to do that, um, which is another thing. And the third one, which is the hardest one, which is what I did, because the easiest thing wasn't what I wanted to do, of course not uh was to do a specific type of phd, in which case you need to apply for funding, secure the funding and then start the phd, and then you're obviously paid as part of that yeah funding um, but post phd.
Speaker 1:There's many you know you can work as a scientist in industry right um. I work as a scientist in industry, you can work as in private, privately yeah, um, so you can be a research scientist, a behavioral scientist. There's many, many things. You can also work in a startup, of course, working on the research and product pipeline. So there's many, many options.
Speaker 2:And when you embarked on this journey and traveled all the way from Italy to the UK, did you have, like, a very specific path that you wanted to follow?
Speaker 1:I knew I wanted to do psychology, which is how I started.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I didn't want to go into the, I would say, more traditional pathway, which is clinical psychology. So it's usually support or psychological therapy for mental health conditions. I was very interested in how we can support people with long-term conditions. So I think by year, two or three I thought, okay, I don't want to go into clinical psychology, which is the normal, what most people do, right.
Speaker 2:So becoming a therapist essentially. Why was that not of interest?
Speaker 1:I don't know, I'm not sure I was more interested in how we can support people with like physical health conditions, I don't know why. At the time I thought, and also the role of lifestyle in health, so maybe food, nutrition, exercise, how they all shape health, in addition to, of course, psychological factors that can support you if you're in ill health, even preventing that. I thought there's a lot to it and, yeah, and that's how I started health psychology.
Speaker 2:Right, Okay, so it doesn't seem like you actually knew you're going to be. And actually the follow up question have you ever thought you're going to start a company, or did you thought that your path is going to be on a professional career?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I thought I was going to be a professor. That's it. At some point. At some point. Yeah, that was it I was. I really loved the academic path.
Speaker 1:I think up until I mean even my PhD. I love my PhD. It was so rewarding because of the area in which I was working, but I think by the end of it I was getting a bit frustrated because of the area in which I was working, which was essentially developing treatments for vulvodynia, for vulvar pain, and how this wasn't really available. And if you do something in the context of academia or a trial or a specific research project, it can't be widespread. So I think when I was doing it we could see we published the research that women benefited from this intervention that I created. But I thought, why is this not more widely available? And I realized quickly that writing papers for the rest of my life wouldn't necessarily give the impact that I wanted to provide to women who were lacking these interventions. So that's when I started to think about it, but not during my PhD. I was too busy then.
Speaker 2:I think after that. So basically, you got frustrated with the whole process and the industry of research and the fact that it's, would you say, moving too slow and it's not very widespread in terms of reach and access to information, and that's why you went into starting your own business and addressing this problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, obviously I've had lived experience of pelvic pain. So that's how it all started, right, I was doing my master's, had lived experience as a scientist, as an early, you know, career researcher. At the time I thought, okay, what are the? Why is no one? Why does nobody? Does nobody know what's happening here? So I started looking into the research. There was no research. So I was like, okay, why is there no research? And if you look at other types of pelvic of chronic pain, like low back pain, fibromyalgia a bit less, but low back pain, there's a lot of research, there's a lot of support. But for conditions that primarily affect women, particularly gynecological conditions, there's not much research. And that's what I started being interested in. That.
Speaker 2:But that seems very peculiar. Did you find out the reason why there's not much research? Because it just feels it's such a widespread um problem in a sense, right, so, like the pelvic pain and um and um and and having chronic pains as well in that area. And he before you came, and actually before we talked initially when you said well, well, there was not much, I thought surely that's not true, like this is a age old problem, right, that you'd expect people to have delved into. So what happened?
Speaker 1:I mean, I guess it's part of a bigger picture in women's health. Right, gyne in particular is very, very not looked into. But I think in general, when we look at women's health or conditions that primarily affect women, there isn't much data. Um, even uh, clinical trials up until the 90s in the us, I believe, only were only carried out of men. So women, you know all the common drugs that we have now right that we use all the time at booths, super drug, whatever they haven't been really tested, at least so far, on women. So it's, if you think about it, that's bizarre, that this is.
Speaker 2:That's a very shocking revelation to me. I've not really realized that. I thought that you know when you test, clinically test drugs or treatments, you kind of like have a spectrum of subjects that you do those tests yeah, I mean women's bodies are also completely different, right?
Speaker 2:so you're not going to apply the same, like you can't really apply specifically, I suppose. I don't know, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a scientist, but there might be some physiological reactions from a guy to a woman of course, we're completely different and also, you know, men don't have conditions that women have right and vice versa.
Speaker 1:For example, for women, endometriosis it's not something men have. So, in addition to being different, there's also conditions that affect women and not men, and I think these ones in particular haven't been studied enough. Um, and it was particularly the case when it came to these pain conditions pelvic pain there is a lot to say about the taboo as well that surrounds these conditions. People don't want to talk about it. So I think there is a lot to say about the taboo as well that surrounds these conditions.
Speaker 2:People don't want to talk about it.
Speaker 1:So I think there is a stigma associated with it. I worked in HIV temporarily between my master's and my PhD and there was so much overlap. I mean HIV, right, it's still somehow perceived as taboo, as a boo topic, somehow. Right, it's not the same as saying I've got the flu. There's still so much to change in terms of how it's perceived and I guess treatment also. Um was quite slow because of that and I think it's the same here.
Speaker 2:Um, obviously they're not the same, but some, there is some degree of overlap that's very surprising, and I have follow-up questions, actually, because it's surprising to me that in the world of research and science, there's a mix between what's mainstream, what's taboo, that actually impacts the research on that topic. I've never thought that that would be the case. Why do you think that is Because I suppose, as a scientist and as a researcher, right, you'd be interested in any type of topics, right? Is it at this level? Or is it the entities, the organizations, the companies that employ you that don't have an interest in those topics because they are taboo? So, basically, there are not that many jobs and many roles to tackle some of these taboo topics.
Speaker 1:I mean I think it's very complex. It's a little bit of both, I would say. I mean there is a fundamental issue in terms of representation as well. In academic research, right, there's way less women professors than men, right, and I think you know, if you don't have endometriosis, you probably you have a harder time right thinking about it or like considering as a topic. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but if you have a more diverse, you know um sort of population when it comes to professors or people in higher academic, you know um careers and and roles, then there is a chance of diversity in research and I think it's the same even like um, when we look at like demographics and ethnicity, most of the research is focused on white women. There's not much that looks at other ethnicities or other social economic backgrounds. We know that there is a specific funnel of people that go into research most of the time anyways.
Speaker 1:So I think it's part of a bigger issue, but the taboo doesn't help. I think people don't like to talk about it and I think for a very long time these issues have been very um considered as normal, like period pain is not normal, right, it's common, but that doesn't mean it's normal and I think there's still a perception that some of these issues that are even more, you know, sort of in terms of symptoms, more impacting, more debilitating, are perceived as normal part of being a woman, right, and I think there's a bit of a of a social issue in terms of how this is perceived so when you, when you say, um, period pain is not normal, it's common you're referring to, not as in, it's not normal as in, not common you're referring to, it shouldn't be treated as acceptable to have period pain?
Speaker 1:yeah, a bit of discomfort, that's fine, obviously that's how it is. But if you need to take loads of drugs, if it really impacts you on the day-to-day life, that should be investigated. But most people are told, I mean, I was told it's completely normal, right? I mean I've got people around me and my friends and family who are like all day they have to work from home, they have to take drugs, they're not feeling well at all and, yeah, it's been sort of normalized completely. And then so many years later they found out they had endometriosis.
Speaker 2:So yeah, is it because I mean, while you're saying that, I was trying to figure out whether but every single woman in my life that I know know have these kind of like immobilizing level of pains? Is that common or is it in the majority is usually milder as a pain.
Speaker 1:I mean.
Speaker 2:Or is it just like?
Speaker 1:It's a spectrum.
Speaker 1:I would say but I think a lot more women have debilitating pain than we think, and I think the data is starting to show now, um, because when you actually look into this how impactful it is, then then you start to see that a lot more women are affected by it. So it's it, I think the the, the landscape of how like, how common we think it is, is also changing. It's way more common than we used to think. But it is also a spectrum. Right, there are people who have very minimal pain or no pain at all, but a lot of women have, like, difficulties when it comes to periods and, yeah, that's entirely normal and do you, do you reckon that um was also?
Speaker 2:I'm trying, I'm trying to rationalize why the hell this is not a common problem. That's being tackled in your world, that has been tackled already in your world. So I'm trying to defend this. So another rational could it be that the data wasn't there, like you say, to where there was the false impression that the pain is, the intense, pain is not a common factor and that women have milder period, days in a sense, and that's why people have been in your industry, have been like that's fine, it's normal. People are not, women are not massively suffering, uh, of this problem I think there's a misconception.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that this is not such a big deal, right, um, but that is beyond pelvic pain, like in general. There was a recent neurofen uh campaign where they interviewed a lot of women and the results were really clear women are in more pain, more severe pain, than men, but they're less aggressively treated. So you know, as a woman, oftentimes if you go for any type of pain beyond pelvic pain or whatever, you are more likely to not being treated enough for that type of pain, because there's a lot of invalidating responses like, oh, it's all in your head, or are you stressed, or like, have a glass of wine. This is very common and, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's. Obviously it needs to change.
Speaker 1:Um, but I also think there is an element of invisibility, right? Um, mental health is very similar in a way, as in the, funding in mental health is so low compared to other areas of research, and I think there is a lot to say about the invisibility of these conditions. Pain sometimes you can't you know it's what the person says it is, you can't really see pain, and so it becomes invisible and sometimes I guess it gets dismissed or not treated enough because of it, which is a shame it gets dismissed or not treated enough because of it, which is a shame.
Speaker 2:Do you reckon women are built different?
Speaker 2:in this it's when it comes to pain, because, um, I don't know, I've always been the under the impression that women can put up with a lot more pain than men. I mean, women gave birth, you have the menstrual cycle, there's a lot of things which I'm under the impression that women can tolerate a lot more pain than men do. If we would be subject to the same challenges, I think it would be a lot more devastating for for dudes, I don't know, that's, that's always been. At least my mom used to tell me you. You guys, you wouldn't be able to put up with the pain that we go through, um, in your lifetime, yeah, it's hard to say because we have different experience in different experiences, different bodies, different hormone levels, right?
Speaker 1:so it's hard to compare and say definitely, oh, this is. You know, women definitely tolerate pain better, or men do. I would say that definitely, women experience a lot of pain. If you look at like periods or like having children or menopause, there's a lot of like annoying symptoms and sometimes they include pain which, luckily, men experience less often. In terms of these three pillars of like life, I guess, um, not everyone obviously has children, but they might go through menopause, they might go, they will definitely have their period. So, yeah, and obviously men can avoid that, which is which is really good. You know why you can avoid the pain I mean, um, but yeah, it's hard to compare. Um, it's really hard to compare, but I would say, in terms of how it's treated, it's different more than how it's experienced.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to, I want to dive into your entrepreneurship trajectory a bit. So the catalyst was what the hell is going on? There's no research on this, there's no treatments out there. I'm going to do my bit here. To do my bit here. When you realize that, when you had that realization number one, what was your reaction? Were you frustrated? Were you excited at the challenge of potentially diving into this? What was your main, let's say, predominant, feeling? Because in general, people have two states either get frustrated and, you know, make it a negative thing out of it, and there's a lot of people that are like. This is a challenge that I want to tackle.
Speaker 1:You mean as a founder or as a scientist?
Speaker 2:No, when you first realized that this was a problem and that there's no research, what was your initial reaction?
Speaker 1:I mean I was frustrated, uh, I couldn't believe it. I think I was a bit like how is this the same way you're reacting now? You're like that's not possible I'm still in shock, yeah like how is this possible?
Speaker 1:um, so I think there was a bit of a, an initial period of shock, um, an initial period of frustration, but also, how can I? How can I help? Right, how can I? I'm in a fortunate position enough to be a researcher in this area already, right, because I was already doing research in people with long term conditions, or I was specializing in this area. So I thought, why not? I mean, who? If I'm not going to do it, no one else is like, realistically, that's that's how little research there is in this area. So I thought, can I start something that may be shed light on this area a little bit more and help people potentially, you know, in in the future? So that's how it started. I was excited, to be honest, um, and yeah, that's how it started. I think I was was 21.
Speaker 2:And when you asked yourself that question, can I help and shed light over this area? Did you ask yourself that question as a scientist or as a potential founder? Were you as in? Were the first thoughts? Thoughts I'm going to start my own bid here, start a company, I'm frustrated about all of these things and do my own bit. Or was the initial thought? Let me try to help with research work and put this all together. What was the the process there?
Speaker 1:the research bit was the start. A because, I was a researcher at the time, was doing my master's, so my mindset was very much sort of academic how?
Speaker 2:can I?
Speaker 1:make an impact, but also, I think, from a product point of view as a founder. If you have research and like a lot of years of work that back up the product, you're gonna have a product that's more likely to be useful for people.
Speaker 1:So I think that came later. I never thought about founding a company, even during my PhD. I don't know how. I didn't connect the dots, like honestly, it's just I think about it now and I'm like how, but at the time, yes, it was all about, I guess, getting the data, trying to understand things. But during my PhD, I think it was a little bit different from my master's. My master's was more exploratory let's look at this condition for the first time but my PhD I didn't want to do something too like theoretical, like too like up in the air, but not actually a treatment. So I had very much in mind to develop a treatment and see if this works. So it's always been very pragmatic. Even my research part wasn't like just look at things, how can we change things and does this work? And after that, much after that. Then I thought about, uh, using all this research, all these years of rnd into an actual product. But that came later yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I wanted to to understand because it did. It didn't seem like. It seemed like you when you tackle the problem. You were still on your path right and then eventually something happened from there. You decided you wanted to take this, I would say, off the research campus. How did you get into starting the business? Do you have any background in that? Did you have any other other businesses? Was there anyone in your family that's been running businesses? Where'd you get your initial kick of, hey, I'm gonna start the business and I'm gonna set it up like this and do these things yeah, so I.
Speaker 1:It started after the PhD. I was working in industry, so, um, I was. Yeah, it was a a lot later that this happened.
Speaker 2:In terms of inspiration.
Speaker 1:I guess my dad my dad is runs a business has been running a business for 30 years, 30 years. It's a it's not a startup business, which I think it's actually quite interesting. It's a very much like what do we, what can? It's? It's it's a buy and sell very, very simple sort of thing, as in like you get some materials and then you resell them. Simple, there's no. Uh, you know, startup mentality is very like bootstrapping and just doing things lean, just getting something and then reselling it easy. So I think that has helped me a lot in terms of inspiration.
Speaker 1:Um, what was I going to say? Um, I also worked in a startup, um, for some time. So I think that really in women's health. So I think that was quite interesting because I could see how how things were working on a commercial level more and again when I was working as a scientist in a commercial organization, then then I could also learn more about the commercial part of it all. And that's when I realized, okay, I want to do this, I want to use all the knowledge and just open a business.
Speaker 2:Okay, and did you open on your own? Yeah, so you're a solo.
Speaker 1:I'm a solo founder.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and did you had in the early days? Where was it? Just you doing everything, or did you get help for any specific roles or duties from other people?
Speaker 1:no, it was very much bootstrapped. It's always been a bootstrapping company so far. Um, yeah, it's been pretty much. You do everything at the beginning, right, everything.
Speaker 1:So the platform we created was a no code platform. Yeah, I worked on it. The intervention, I mean there were a couple of people that helped in terms of providing some of the services that we provide, because we have pelvic floor physio physiotherapy I'm not a pelvic floor physiotherapist, so we had someone who helped us us larissa, who's been working with us. Um, so there, there were people helping and creating some of the product, but in terms of the bulk of the work, as you know, at the very early stage, it falls in one person so you've put together the platform, um, no, it's built with no code, basically, um, but still that's quite technical right?
Speaker 2:I know a lot of people that have businesses built on no code or low code platforms but they didn't touch anything. They've had someone come in and build that for themselves. How did you get into that, by the way? Did you do some research? Did you have advice from someone that said, said hey, use this platform to build your? How did you?
Speaker 1:um, we. So I'm thinking about how it all came together, to be honest. Uh, the website was webflow. I mean, I knew yeah, by doing some.
Speaker 2:I love webflow nowadays. Webflow nowadays, just you know, you just google it. So you've done research on it and a little bit. Yeah, not extensive research, I just googled it but did you compare it with anything else or was it like this looks um best I also looked at how their friend, how other friends of mine, built, you know, products right and also I worked in a startup, so I had a bit of a sense of how so you knew a bit about it.
Speaker 1:You heard the name, you knew we also have an advisor who has been, who is technical, so has been right you know um suggesting potential ways to go about it, and I think at the very early stage you want to go no code, because it's just easier and it's more, it's leaner and you can really test the market. You can test whether your idea is worth pursuing from where. I mean that's my obviously personal opinion. But I don't think there's a point in creating like an app right that costs so much money you have cloud costs, whatever and then you realize that there's no market. I think there's no interest and no revenue. I think there's no point in doing that. So we had very specific ideas of how we wanted to do it and we used third-party softwares to manage some of our members, because we have a membership platform and all of that. So it was really useful, but just pretty much Googling, asking people and just diving right into it.
Speaker 2:I see, and just diving right into it, I see, well, it's interesting because I think Webflow offers membership as well, but it's also a good factor that you can mix and match platforms. You can use additional bits here and there. Well, speaking of your, your platform, what does it actually do? Talk to me a bit about the some of the examples. So, if someone registers on for your service, what do they get?
Speaker 1:so we have care. That is biopsychosocial.
Speaker 1:I know it sounds, I know I know, all right, okay, one step at a time so in essence it means multidisciplinary right okay if you think about someone having pain for like 10 years or like a long time, right, their impact is not only physical, is also psychological, right? Obviously, because their mental health will be affected, but also because we're looking at genital pain, sex and relationships like painful sex and relationships is also an important, key area, right? So what we provide is that multidisciplinary approach. Essentially, we don't provide support in one way, we provide support in all of these areas. So that is psychological support that is specific to these conditions, right? No more generic cognitive behavioral therapy for anxiety and depression. That doesn't work. We want something that is actually representative of what women with these conditions experience. So that's one.
Speaker 1:The second part is pelvic floor physiotherapy. We know that it's really or women's health physiotherapy. The pelvic floor is a set of muscles and structures that basically has a key role in pelvic pain. Sometimes is very tight, sometimes is not tight enough, but anyway it relates to many of the symptoms that women with these conditions experience. So you can really make an impact by providing targeted pelvic floor physiotherapy. So that's the second thing we provide. And then the third part is sex and relationship therapy. Because of painful sex, that is a big, you know, I guess, issue or symptom that a lot of the people with these conditions experience, and we also know that there is an impact on intimacy and relationships and partners, particularly male partners. They struggle, I guess, to Women struggle in dealing with this, but I think partners struggle too. No, I think partners struggle too. We've talked to them already, but they lack the tools to be supported in this and lack the tools to support women with this. So sex and relationship is all about how can we foster intimacy or improve sex despite these symptoms?
Speaker 2:Right, okay, so it's not a platform just for, say, women that have these pelvic pain issues, it's also for their partners. Um, I see, I understand, and amongst these three categories of help that you you offer, where do you sit in terms of your expertise? Is it across all three fields or was it? Is it a specific one that you're?
Speaker 1:yeah, I'm definitely not pelvic floor physio. Um, that's larissa. Um, I'm more psychological support, pain management yeah, okay, and sex and relationships, because that's something that I did again, for my phd was specifically that also. I'm a charter psychologist, so that's my expertise charter psychologist.
Speaker 2:What's the charter? So what does it actually mean?
Speaker 1:it means basically that you have high psychological knowledge and expertise in the area of psychological support, um, which basically means you can provide psychological support, or you've had extensive training and provided psychological support. In my case, of course, I've specialized in this in pelvic pain, so I'm working on that vertical the psychological and pain management part, as well as sex a little bit too and how how big is your team now, like how many people are involved in in the whole thing?
Speaker 2:so we're four people.
Speaker 1:We also have advisors that have been helping us quite a lot. Um, I think it's been quite important to have a wide range of advisors. So we have people that are more commercial, and then people that are more tech oriented but yeah, and who else? I'm missing something? Tech, commercial and pain management, sex and relationships. So all the target areas that we basically have, as well as the broader commercial parts and regulatory parts. We have people that have been supporting us with it.
Speaker 2:And you said you started in 2021. Was it in 2021 that you started looking at the problem, or when you started the business, the company?
Speaker 1:I started the business like a year ago, oh, a year ago Last year. Basically, oh, yeah, last year, basically, yeah, last year okay, so it's, it's quite fresh yeah, and it's your first business, my first business what month did you start?
Speaker 2:um, I want to say full time december december 2022, 2022, so it's your one year anniversary. Oh, I should have gotten you a cake or something with a candle. That's awesome. Does it feel like one year?
Speaker 1:it feels longer than that. Oh my god, especially if you're a solo founder. There's so much work to do. It's um, yeah, it's a lot right.
Speaker 2:So what do you spend your time most with in your business?
Speaker 1:right now. Let's say right now, right now, now, yeah, um, a raise, raise, yeah, raising money. Yeah, now we're raising money.
Speaker 2:So and in the first days, first month of your business, what were you spending most of your time?
Speaker 1:product, developing the product products, speaking to customers, validation, all of that, yeah how did you get your first customers? We got them because we had a landing page and, with our, with basically our programs online that people could purchase directly online. Uh, we basically made it very easy. No, no friction for people to purchase the programs if they wanted to, and they just did. They just happened to come to our page, signed up and purchased the programs. So it didn't, it just happened organically wait, what you mean just happened.
Speaker 2:Nothing happens out of the blue, so you must have done something good so was it? Was it did you normally right? You do a bunch of research on seo yeah keywords, research and so on, which I'm sure you're aware of. You. You're a solo founder. You've done all of the groundwork here and then you target your landing page for those keywords that hopefully have really good score where there's a high volume and less competition. Was that part of it?
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, we had a few keywords, but we didn't do that, honestly, at the beginning we just like put the product out there. Um, we had a few keywords, of course, because they needed to understand what the you know what the landing page was for. So we had words like endometriosis, vulvodynia, vaginismus, but we didn't do a background seo search, not not the first month. We did the second month, yeah, but not when we first published it, because we wanted to publish it first and then improve it as we went right.
Speaker 2:Um, so there was that but did you share it on with your network and so on when you launched? Yeah, like a big bang launch we did a big launch.
Speaker 1:Um, I'm just thinking now we didn't, we weren't even on any social media like really it's. It's, that's what I'm saying. They found us because they were googling us it Not the company itself, but the issues the issue.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm thinking, because if you not even put, let's say, deep thinking into optimization and being where people exist and you started getting traction, it means that, which you probably probably kind of realized when you started doing research, and you realize there's no research, that probably a lot of people are searching for this topic. Yeah, so do you reckon that you're in a very strong position where there's very little to no um cure slash treatments of this condition and it's very easy to kind of like take over the market that doesn't yet exist but there's significant demand on yes, okay.
Speaker 1:Basically. Yes, I started seeing it when I was doing the trial during my PhD. We were oversubscribed, completely oversubscribed. It was insane and compared to my peers who were doing trials in other areas say diabetes, cancer, very common conditions they struggled with recruitment. I didn't. It was like we needed to, just we had to close the recruitment. We couldn't take more people. It was crazy and I kept getting emails on my inbox about people oh, you're doing research in Volvodinia. You're doing research in Volvodinia which, by the way, still happens today because there's absolutely nothing. So I could see that. And that's when I started to think oh okay, here there's something and I've seen it. You know, from a patient point of view, in a way that when you look for answers, nobody seems to know anything. So then you start to go online and look desperately for things. And I think that that is exactly what happened right when we had the landing page they just came to us and I asked them how did you find it?
Speaker 1:Oh, we just Googled it. We were Googling for solutions and we found this was the first program. Or we just googled it.
Speaker 2:We were googling for solutions and we found this was the first program. I hear that that's like. That's the. The dream, the dream of every single founder, is for them to build a solution and everyone to flock to their, to their product. But do you not have any competitors? Is there not nothing, no service, no product out there that's tackling any of this.
Speaker 1:So there are some products that um do basically help with pelvic pain, with um sorry chronic pain in general in general.
Speaker 2:So, like my headache, I have chronic headache pain, so it's for that as well but it's not.
Speaker 1:It's not very specific to pelvic pain. There is like maybe a little bit on pelvic pain, but it's not very specific to the challenges of pelvic pain. Also, there is the issue of research, right, considering the research I did was the first one involved with denia. So how can you create a service if there's no research behind it?
Speaker 2:That's what I was going to ask, but apparently there is no specific treatment and I think that there would be immediately taxed and shut down if it's like, oh, this cures or treats this specific menstrual pain, when it's not based on any research.
Speaker 1:I mean, you would think that, but unfortunately, because people are that's the state of things right, they're desperate, their pain is not being treated, right, they, they just try anything and if you're in the well-being space, right, and you're not regulated, then you can say whatever, right, oh, this will help you, uh, I don't know. Instead of saying treating, you can say manage, right, and then you're fine, like oh, so it's your.
Speaker 2:Your lexicon is your language, the way you use the language well, in a sense, like my partner, is all like neurofen, like the painkillers usually help calm it down. Um, it's not like taking away the pain completely, but helps a bit with the calming down state. But again, it's a very generic solution I mean that's more for period pain.
Speaker 1:We're talking period pain yeah yeah, so if we look at vulvodynia endometriosis, these don't really help as much can you explain a bit what these um issues are? Okay, so I'll I'll dive into vulvodynia because I I guess it's. It's less talked about.
Speaker 2:I feel like endometriosis yeah, and sorry for my ignorance, but I'm.
Speaker 1:Vulvodynia is vulvar pain, so pain in the female external genitalia. Anywhere can be anywhere, uh, without an identifiable cause, without a reason, without a reason pain chronic pain in the the external female genitalia.
Speaker 2:It's like headaches that no one knows why migraines happen.
Speaker 1:Correct. So usually when you get a diagnosis, it's a diagnosis of exclusion, right? You exclude everything that may cause vulvar pain. Could be an infection. No, you exclude that. Could be, I don't know cancer. You exclude that, something else. When you exclude all of these, what's? Yeah, the last?
Speaker 2:basically, the diagnosis is vulvodynia okay, and that is a mystery, because no one knows why that's nobody knows.
Speaker 1:I mean it's. It's considered like a syndrome, meaning there are so many reasons as to why you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's the same with with migraines like oh did you? Are you drinking enough water? Are you doing this, are you doing that? They're doing that and it becomes impossible to really understand why you're getting that, because there's so many things that could yeah, affect it in terms of symptoms.
Speaker 1:um, basically the symptoms are burning pain, like knife-like pain, like you know, when you put your hand on a hot stove by mistake and you feel that burning. That's how it's often described.
Speaker 2:And it's like that level of so, like you would burn yourself in a sense, so not like a mild feeling or anything like that.
Speaker 1:No, usually it's quite significant pain and it depends from person to person. It varies, but you can have the pain provoked by something, so you can have it after sex or wearing a tampon. You can have then vulvodynia. Sometimes it's just spontaneous, so there's no trigger that causes the pain. You just, you know, wake up and you have pain like that and I suppose it's also because it's so intense, it's also crippling.
Speaker 2:In a sense you can't. It's very not that you can't, but it's very difficult to go through a normal day with that kind of pain yeah or do you do you feel, from your research and such, that women just put up with the pain and continue their normal lives? Is it kind of like a lifestyle altering type of pain right, like migraines intense migraines are considered lifestyle-threatening issues.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, it's severe. It can be very severe, it depends it's a spectrum right.
Speaker 1:So you can have just pain during sex. Maybe you don't have sex, you're sort of yeah, you don't have pain, right. It can be like that, which is obviously impacting you in many ways, but it's very different from having pain all day long, right, uh, even if you don't do anything, even if there's no trigger. So it can be very, very debilitating. Yes and um, a lot of how volvodinia is described is only in relationship to having pain during sex, but actually we know now that a lot more women have pain outside of it, so it's a lot more. It impacts women way more than it is described, even in research or you know, even outside of research. You know accounts of people who have vulvodynia.
Speaker 2:From your analytics and so on. Do you see your customers registering because of this, because of this condition, or menstrual pain is something that's more common in your users, or is it a balance?
Speaker 1:We've had a bit of a mix. I would say endometriosis and vulvodynia have been the ones that have you know, been requested vaginismus as well. I think vulvodynia because the ones that have you know been requested vaginismus as well. I think vulvodynia because I've done work in the area. I'm also a trustee. Well, I'm involved in a company, in a sorry company, in a charity association called the vulvar pain society, and the research advisor there. So I think some people may connect the dots through some previous research that I've done. So obviously, vulvodynia is something that people reach out to us about, but also endometriosis, also PCOS, which sometimes can impact sex fibroids, loads of conditions.
Speaker 2:Do you consider your business more of a product or service business, or do you treat both equally? But by that I mean on your platform are a bunch of, let's say, a set of pre-made training courses and treatment courses and so on, and then you also have the counseling and the sessions with physicians and your experts internally. Are they both on your platform, and which is the one that you're focusing more on, if that makes sense?
Speaker 1:yeah, so, um, we're not a telehealth service in the sense that there's no sort of face like there's no appointments we don't do right appointments, I see okay yeah, so what we do is we provide therapy.
Speaker 2:You know headspace yeah, headspace like so it's. It's similar in terms of it's you sign up it's product.
Speaker 1:You have access to digital therapy that's developed by clinicians, that is accessible, with like audio insights, guided practices, videos, etc. Etc. Obviously, we know that, like, one size doesn't fit all, so it needs to be personalized even more to the individual. So, with the RAISE, our plan is to actually create an AI-powered solution for pelvic pain that actually takes into consideration women's data and all of that, and provide something even more personalized to them.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Yeah, thank you for clarifying that, because when you were talking about it and you said that you brought on to, I suppose, and take the treatments and so on, um, and what's the how's the feedback, um process looking like? Because I suppose, like that's one of the things that I would assume you care the most is getting hearing back from your customers absolutely it's it's very important for you to know whether you're doing a great job with these treatments or not yeah, so the feedback has been positive.
Speaker 1:The reason I'm saying this is not because you know everyone has to say it's positive, but it was positive because we, again, as part of my phd, it was all about customizing treatments for these conditions. So I already started with something that was informed by what people wanted. Right, with a lot of research, developing then the treatments. But before developing the treatment, what we did was what do people need? What are the specific nuances and challenges and needs of people who live with this condition, so that we can then customize the treatment.
Speaker 2:So there was already all of that personalization done All of your research and all of the work that you've done before.
Speaker 1:Then, obviously as a company, we did a big validation phase that revealed that people actually wanted to have that multidisciplinary approach that also included pelvic floor physio, et cetera, et cetera. So that we created a service based on that, to have that multidisciplinary approach right that also included pelvic floor physio, etc. Etc. So that we created a service based on that and that is what they like the most about. There are services that provide some psychological support for pelvic pain, but it's not multidisciplinary, and I think I mean everyone. You know every product is different, you know, depending on the company and whatnot. But I think, especially in this area, where women are often told it's all in your head, creating something that's purely psychological to me is not really useful in this area. In this area, we need also physical treatments or the combination of both. Which is the most successful. We know that in long-term pain pain, multidisciplinary treatments are the best and, from a feedback point of view, that's what they like the combination of physical and psychological insights and therapy that's good to know.
Speaker 2:My question actually was more more technical than than that in a sense of I was curious what your process is within your product or outside your product whatever, however, that looks okay of gathering data of how effective these are and how people are taking the treatment how they feel how they're engaging with the product, and so on.
Speaker 1:So we've obviously tracked how and heard from them through questionnaires. We have used clinical questionnaires that have been used for many, many years to track pain. That's the question, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Pain, mental health, sexual function, so how they're doing with intimacy, sexual satisfaction and all of that. We've asked these questions before the therapy started, so when they started with the product, also during the treatment and then after the treatment. On top of that, we've also done interviews with customers as well, because we know that you can gather so much data from quantitative, you know, sort of questionnaires, um, and it's also important to talk to people, right?
Speaker 1:so the point of this podcast, like having a real conversation, getting information from them that may not have been captured by the questionnaires themselves okay, so.
Speaker 2:So basically, when you read what I'm picturing now based on what you're saying and tell me if I'm wrong or not, I register, got my account set up I get like some sort of when I start, I get some at some point in my onboarding process. I get these questions. Then along the way I might get another kind of like I don't know if you ever seen NPS score kind of like hey, how, how, how, how are you doing, how's the service? And so on. And then you might also reach out for feedback or at, let's say, at the end of is there an end of the treatment or is it every single time you have that, the, the pains, you use the tool?
Speaker 1:so we started with one-off programs, so there was an end, but we realized actually these are long-term conditions.
Speaker 1:So subscription uh a subscription is easier to digest, obviously, because it's scattered, but also there's many areas of therapy that we can provide, like you know, obviously support with. If you even think about, like, endometriosis, right, it takes months or vulvodynia, you know, all these therapeutic approaches that we have take a long time to actually, you know, to help people. So we realize that subscription is more appropriate. We've also talked to customers and they prefer that so they can tap into different areas of support instead of being sort of confined by one program and then they kind of explore other things, right, In addition to what you were saying, which you perfectly described the product but I think the additional part is that we, when we onboard people, yeah, it's not really like a bit I don't want to say basic onboarding, but traditional onboarding, like here's what this is, here's what this is and here's where this one is it's. We've created an online assessment with clinicians and researchers and product people so that we can guide our customers towards the best course or program.
Speaker 2:Um so they can get started on that, so they they go through a guide like a learn about this and um, while you're also identifying what you have, what kind of challenge you're um you're facing or, um, what kind of symptoms you have, in order for you to take the right treatment exactly because we know everyone's different and we want to make sure that they start on the thing that actually would help them the most, based on what they prefer, but also based on their symptoms and our knowledge of the field.
Speaker 1:So we guide them towards that um pathway that is most helpful for them at the beginning.
Speaker 2:Well, that this seems like you put a lot of thought into into this, into the product and into the onboarding process. Did you had any help from some sort of uxy designer, a professional that helped you, product person that helped you with it? We did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have had a lot of help over the summer with it, so I think it's been really useful. Obviously, you also look at other products, how they work, but the most important part was the UX and UI over the summer. That was really, I would say it made the biggest change into how the product is today.
Speaker 2:And because it seems like you've had a very rapid, accelerated year, like you said. Your words, not mine. It feels more than a year, probably because you've done a lot through this year and you mentioned you're in the phase of looking for funding. How did you fund it so far? So we bootstrapped the company literally just bootstrapping, just personal funds yeah, we were revenue generating from like.
Speaker 1:In october we started being revenue generating so that was one thing, um, also, we did one of programs, so not a subscription, uh, and our one of programs were 100 to 200 pounds. So that was, you know, obviously that's how we started. And then, soon after we created, after the platform, we also realized that this is an issue in the workplace. So our platform worked for businesses as well, as you know, direct to consumers. So what we did was we engaged with a big company and we went through the the b2b sale with them pipeline so that they would provide our software to people in the workplace. So we did a company sale as well, and now we're looking at the second one and and that's why, with all destruction, now we're like raising and that's a subscription based as well.
Speaker 1:That was yes, like an annual subscription. So a one year contract, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's really really good. So it does seem like you're generating revenue now and you're not your first round. And is this seed, I suppose, round that you're not your first round. And is this, is this, uh seed, I suppose round that you're aiming for, or is it? Are you going for? First time pre-seed seed or vc I mean it would be pre-seed.
Speaker 1:I would say we consider us pre-seed, yeah okay, can I ask how much you're raising? 450k 450k. Okay, yeah raising 450k, 450k.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, seed I feel that nowadays things have I mean, it's just so have changed sometimes. Well, the end they like these amounts and these raising rounds have changed so much. A pre-seed back in my days, because I'm so old, meant you're raising from kind of like friends and family and you know you're raising 50k, maximum 100k, and now, because you're not the, you're not the only person that tells me that they're raising pre-seed 400 uh, ish, I've seen 1 million, yeah, yeah, 2 million, the?
Speaker 1:u it's. Two million pre-seed We've spoken to investors and they're like, oh yeah, we were speaking to a pre-seed company. They raised three million pre-seed Like okay, fantastic, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Very interesting and this, the raising bid. This is the first time. What are some of the things that some of the preconceived notions that you had around raising money versus? Let's say, now I'm like, now I'm wiser about that, I feel I know more.
Speaker 1:And this was not how I was supposed, how I was thinking is going to be. I think something that has changed is not necessarily to do with the raise, because the raise is the most recent part, so throughout the year I've accumulated more experience with it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And I've spoken to a lot of founders who have told me how difficult it is to raise. It's very difficult, but it was, I think, for me. I know it's unrelated to the raise, I think it was more at the beginning. It was harder. I think it was getting out of the academic. You know, I created an academic product, yeah, treatment. It was just doing something that's not academic, right, so that was harder. Even the way you present the company or you talk about the company needs to be commercial. That's. That's a different thing, and I think when you do a phd, sometimes there's one way to do things and you just need to get out of that can you give me a specific example?
Speaker 2:so it can be a s'mores yeah.
Speaker 1:So for example, like if say like my treatment during my phd helped people, right, if you're a phd, you're told to just underplay it, to just say, oh, there is some evidence that the treatment may help may benefit. Some people startup. This helped millions of lives the best you know, product that has ever, whatever.
Speaker 2:I understand, yeah, because I suppose you're governed by different rules and things, although I do think that when it comes to medicine, when it comes to well-being, when it comes to food industry, it doesn't really matter if you're a startup. You still need to be careful with Of course.
Speaker 2:I think you're right around the culture of things with. I think you're right around the culture of things because you know, as a scientist you're a bit more modest and moderated in thinking and analytical and critical of certain things, so that kind of helps keep you grounded to things whereas startup founders and teams are excited about the smallest thing.
Speaker 1:It's a balance right and I think that was the biggest thing. Also, in terms of how the product looks right, I think there's not much UX and UI into academic products, if not at all. I mean, that wasn't even something that we considered. I considered at the time when I was working on it it was like a long list of like a Word document in a way. I mean it was a platform I'm joking, but like a long list of like a Word document in a way. I mean it was a platform, I'm joking, but it didn't look nice as much as what we're doing now.
Speaker 1:That needs to look engaging and it's very different, and there's a design process, there's all of that, and I think as an academic, you don't really think about it as much. It's just a bit duller. So I think that's one little thing. In terms of the raise, yeah, it's been really, really exciting.
Speaker 2:But, I think, also less hard because of all the things that I learned before, and I think you're also. Honestly, it is hard, it's always hard, to raise money, especially the first time you raise money. Yeah, what makes it easier is you're not pre-money yeah as in.
Speaker 2:You're generating revenue, which sounds like you do. You have proven track record of this being a significant value to to customers and something that people have your potential customer base have been looking for, so it's like a super exciting thing to get into, and also the team right. So who are the people involved? And I think for me, these are three factors that contribute whether you'd invest or not, and I don't think you're gonna have that much. Did you had a lot of pitches so far?
Speaker 1:um, if, if I pitched a lot, what do you mean?
Speaker 2:yeah, if you had any? Uh, have you pitched yeah?
Speaker 1:oh yeah, quite a bit. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it's been a month.
Speaker 2:I want to say a month, okay, so it's not that you're very early, so I was gonna ask what the feedback has been, but it's still quite early. Did you get any feedback from from potential angel investors?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah some of them were really excited. We got an offer in as well. Um, we really I think it was. It was quite a good position to start this. But because of what you said, like the revenue, but also I, you know, in pre-seed it's all about the founder, you know, in a way it's very important. Or the team, right, it's you. You can't just you have to sell and just talk about the vision, but you also have to have something that is concrete behind it, right?
Speaker 1:and I think, sometimes, if you create a product in chronic pain but you don't know anything about chronic pain, that's really difficult, because then you need to, how, how can you, how can you make the impact that you want to do and you want to have? Um, so I think for me it was quite good that I did all of the stuff which gives some you know science behind it, and then obviously the commercial part traction now. So I think we're getting I'm getting both of them together and I think that makes up a very good story how are you?
Speaker 2:how are you finding the transition so far? Because, from someone coming from from research and doing a big, impressive phd and so on, versus now having to do all of those startup founder, um life type of things, how are you finding the transition? Do you find anything that's hard? Are you missing anything from your science scientist career that you were, that you embarked in at the early stage?
Speaker 1:I think it's less conventional. You know, entrepreneurship it's all about adapting, it's all about being agile. It's very different from academia. That is, there's one way to do things. So I think, you know, when I was my PhD, I did my master's and my bachelor's. I kind of knew what I was doing right. In a way that it, and also because there's one way to do it, once you learn that you're done as an entrepreneur, you can go like about it. You know a thousand ways and I think it's really exciting and if you're agile, that works. But I think it's just very different. So I think that was the biggest difference. I think I was lucky enough that I worked in a startup and I had a commercial role.
Speaker 1:So I think it helped me before so I didn't sort of start it right after the PhD. That would have been really difficult, I think. So I think because that gave me experience on both ends. But yeah, I think the the the uncharted path is really difficult. You know, each startup has their own story and their own.
Speaker 2:You know trajectory and, and it's so unique there's no you no glove that fits every single startup, and I think that's the one thing that is very. Yeah, there's a lot of information out there when it comes to founders, how to start a business, how to do things, but there's very rare occasions where, let's say, someone selling this template on how to start and grow a startup. It's very rare occasions that that template works with your startup because you have so many unique factors and components in your business so you just have to pick, cherry pick information here and there. So I think that's and you're probably right, because I and it's I don't know it feels like it's also harder to detach or deviate from the original path.
Speaker 2:Um, because you know it's a bit more unconventional, can be considered risky, can be considered you know. So I think that's the oh. The risk of doing things differently is usually when it comes to um, education, to governments, to medicine, to all of these things are a lot harder. Do you find the startup environment more challenging to you for yourself than being an academic and working as a scientist?
Speaker 1:There are different challenges. I think I think I really enjoy being an entrepreneur, like I could have continued with what I was doing years ago and I didn't. So I think in terms of enjoyment, I like this more because you can combine, combine the science, but into a commercial environment. So I think that's the best you know. You don't really abandon the, the sort of scientific hat you have. You can, you can use it, um and just, but also add that commercial element at that sort of creating something that works but doing in an agile and fast way that reaches people. So I think I like this more. I always felt when I was doing my PhD that there was something missing, and I think by the end of it I felt it even more, which is why I started working in industry even before this, and I think that's when I started thinking about creating something that could be more commercial.
Speaker 2:Yeah, was it scary when you, when you, when you started thinking, was it, was it daunting to start a business? And did any of your you know, being around, your dad that had a business, help you be a bit more resilient to it? Or was it still like, oh my god, am I gonna really start a business?
Speaker 1:look, it's tough, especially as a female founder. It's tough, but I did have a good support. I've always had a good support network. My dad has been really supportive of this um I want to say almost more than phd, but that's not true. He's been supportive all the time, but with this in particular, it's been really good to talk to him right, especially with the uncertainty of everything and just as a CEO, you go home and trying to switch off right. It's something that, at the beginning, I struggled with. Switching off was really difficult and I spoke to him about it and he was like you just need to do it, you just need to find a way and I'm sure you've encountered this as well to just switch off and take care of yourself.
Speaker 2:I never do. You never do. I mean I yeah.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I do, I do it better than before. Let's say that I don't switch off entirely, but I can switch off better than at the beginning. It was wow. It was wow, but it also makes sense because you need to work so much harder when you're starting something. You just need to learn and yeah. So I think that my dad has been really useful with that, but also other startup founders, I think. You know we were in a couple of accelerators, so moving, meeting other people who are going through the same. You know, experience has been really, really valuable interesting.
Speaker 2:So you've done accelerators and what. What's the one thing that's you took out of that, of the most valuable thing, if you were to choose just one thing out of doing an accelerator?
Speaker 1:I think the networking, speaking to founders and, yeah, speaking founders, I found that it was so useful, like so, so good, like even something. Like you know, you were saying oh, how did you find, how did you use this product, why did you choose no code? Right, that was through conversations with other people. So I think that's been the most helpful thing, especially with seasoned, more seasoned, seasoned founders.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, that's been really really valuable yeah, I think the network um is important and leveraging, basically leveraging each other's especially. You know, usually I'm expecting to find less seasoned founders in these accelerators and maybe I'm wrong, I don't know and more aspiring founders and first-time founders and such, but still, there's a wealth of experience there that you can leverage from each other, because someone has this background, someone's an engineer, someone's a designer, someone's this and that.
Speaker 1:So you, you've learned, learn about a lot of software and you can exchange skill sets right, like maybe a founder is more, I don't know, like in can't think of one now like uh, another sector. But they need advice from someone who does more like I don't know, has a background in in pelvic pain, right or and whatnot, and you can just exchange knowledge, right and um with the accelerators.
Speaker 1:You're right, like it depends on the accelerator, the one that um, the most recent one we've been to, which is the digital health london one had specific to femtech, had more seasoned, like way more seasoned people, and also young. It was younger in terms of, like, how the maturity of the company was, there was. It was a spectrum, but there were people who had done the, who had been in the company for like almost 10 years. So there were people who had raised two, three times already.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that was a good support system for you to help you go through the first phase of starting the business. Sounds like your dad's been quite supportive. Sounds like your dad almost said something earlier, which I'm like, but that makes sense that your dad probably was more excited about you starting a business than your PhD. Probably was more excited about you starting a business than your PhD, but as a businessman I suppose it's like more of a. If that's the case, he can relate with his daughter a bit better. I think so.
Speaker 1:Look, he's always been so supportive. I love my dad but I think because he didn't do a PhD and it's very you know specific stuff like biopsychosocial in pelvic pain in vulvodynia, right, I think this it's more of what he has known. So, he can provide advice, and I think it's also very exciting for him to provide advice on something he's worked on for 30 years.
Speaker 1:And I think that's easier. It's a better space for him to be at and if I were him, I would be probably doing the same. He's never said anything, just saying, but yeah, just, but give him that.
Speaker 2:Okay, he's, he's, he's excited to to be able to contribute to to his daughter's uh journey. Okay, more than understanding, what on earth are you talking about with your phd?
Speaker 1:no, yeah, I think that's. Yeah, that's been really really, really good do you go often back home visiting?
Speaker 2:I go twice a year usually twice a year okay christmas, summer yeah, that's it usual times yeah exactly, and do you find yourself talking about um your business quite often when you're at home or do you kind of try to keep that away from family dinners and things like that?
Speaker 1:no, I think we talk about it. I mean, my dad has always been very open when he talked about his business, talking to us, you know, um, not in like an annoying kind of way, like all day talking about it and there's no other time but he's, you know, he. You talk about work, what happened, what didn't happen, and that's really helpful. You know you speak to other people, so, yeah, it's always been an environment that's been normal for me and and, yeah, I'm doing the same yeah, I try to speak less than I want to about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too things. But yeah, it's it's.
Speaker 2:It's the same for me, because when I'm, when I'm in my environment in here and working with the people that I work, you know everyone's kind of caught up with everything and everyone's involved and so on. I feel that when I, when I go back home, I meet with my mom and my sister and I'm just, I'm just so excited to just talk about my stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And sometimes it's hard to know when to shut up. Yeah, so you're definitely going to get this um raising round. I have absolutely zero doubt that that's um gonna happen, that that's not gonna happen. I have zero doubt that that's not gonna happen. Yes, that's the right phrase. Um, how, what, what does that mean for your business? Getting the 400, some, a thousand pounds?
Speaker 1:hundred, some a thousand pounds, what? How are you going to put that to good use? So, bring in some of the team members. You know full-time I'm the only full-time person. I think that would be really valuable so that you know the work can be you know, um, I guess, differentiated and I can take less of the workload. And also, I think it would be great for me to do more AI within the company, like really build in the AI within the company. I think go to a more tech intensive phase would be really valuable. So that's one part Improving our platform, enhancing, not improving.
Speaker 1:Enhancing our platform it's great, but I think, in light of what we were saying, enhancing, not improving. Enhancing our platform it's great, but I think, in light of what we were saying, which is personalization, precision medicine, you need that level of AI to build it, that level of intelligence to build it. And I think something I'm really excited about is also providing this, which is something we've been thinking about over time, to also provide extend our support to men. Men have pelvic pain too. I know we've talked about women for like a good amount of time, but these issues, like prostatitis and a lot of other issues, affect men, but men don't talk about their mental health, as we all know, or they have, they have more difficulty, or they've been told to not talk about their mental health as much as women do, and I think there's still the same issues as stigma, invalidation and lack of support in this area. As much there that you know, as much as women and we. We know that this is something that is so important too.
Speaker 2:So that's something we're really excited about yeah, I do think that you're you're in a good place.
Speaker 2:I do think that what you're doing is great and it needs to be accelerated. Um, I, yes, I think that's also a future phase, like, um, men pain and so on, um, and, and I don't know. I think it really depends on what the type of advice you got and what it makes the most ration and logic for you to have the next step, me, just, with the shallow knowledge that I have of your business right now, I would double down on the chronic pains that you've described and make sure that you know that AI is as well placed as possible, that there's no seed of doubt, that any of the treatments are not effective or less effective than other things, and so on. And only afterwards I would um get into that, this like the men's pain side of things, but it's that's. That's only my style. I know so many people that start multiple things and it does work right. If you have enough resources to focus in multiple places, that works as well I mean, we're gonna do exactly what you described by the way way, just so you know.
Speaker 1:Because, look, we know this space very well and, in its chronic form, this affects primarily women. So we know that this is an exciting space to also build the AI, get the database going, you know, understand how we can improve our services even more and make even a greater impact, to then extend as well to men. But that's not something we would do immediately, right, it's just something that you know, the that needs to happen over time. You can't solve everything and I think you, if you just try to solve everything at the same time, you just you won't. We, we are really specialized and the best in the fields in women's pelvic pain and we'll obviously work on it always, and over time we'll also see how we can support everyone yeah, you probably need more money um to do everything in the same time with the ai um implementation.
Speaker 2:Are you planning to be directly involved, hands-on involved, in that, as in me doing the ai? Yeah, no. So how are you planning to be directly involved hands-on?
Speaker 1:involved in that as in me doing the ai yeah, no.
Speaker 2:So how are you? How are you going to be involved?
Speaker 1:I mean I'll be involved in terms of, in terms of the ideas behind it okay, yes but actually developing it, not necessarily developing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not, it's not your area, but um, I was just curious on how deep you go with um, with your involvement in some of these areas, because you and the reason why I've asked the question is because you build the, the, the website, uh, with no code. You've been doing all of these areas because you had to and was wondering if you're um, you know, if you're planning to, and curious in diving into machine learning, ways of working and um, ai and all of this stuff I'm tempted, very tempted, and also we used um.
Speaker 1:We use, like you know, we use networks to understand how women's um pain change in different populations. Within my PhD, so I was always curious about pushing the methods in which we could understand people's data, so I was already going in that direction. Obviously, I wouldn't be able to be involved as in me creating it, but I would definitely, I will definitely be there, like I'm so excited to see this develop, but it won't be me. I'm not a machine learning engineer, so we need someone who is not me doing that for sure, because, also you don't want to make mistakes we need someone who's specialized. We already have been speaking to and been consulting with a person who has been fantastic, and that's the same person who has been advising us to start NoCode so that we can get the data and then train the AI, which is very valuable actually. So we already have the right person, but obviously I'm going to be lurking around.
Speaker 2:I won't mess it up. Are you a technical person and do you have that? Some people have this gift of picking up stuff really quick, like I'm. I'll give you an example. I'm working with a friend of mine for Misfit Founders.
Speaker 2:He's my production assistant and helps me with publishing and working on the snippets and all of that stuff.
Speaker 2:With publishing and working on the snippets and all of that stuff, we know each other since we were 14 years old.
Speaker 2:We used to be high school buddies and it was just this year that I realized how good of a visual memory he has and how good he is at picking up things, that I would show him a piece of software once and he would be able to use it and replicate what I was doing and I was quite shocked about it. So you know, since then I've been fascinated to find out, because I've never had. I've never had that. I've worked with so many people in my career and so on, and you always have to train people over multiple periods of time and answer questions and I've never had a person like like him before. So since then I'm curious on the levels of how quick people pick up stuff. So I was curious if you were, if you consider yourself a technical person, and if you feel like you're picking up tools and practices quite quickly, like, for example, how much time and effort did it took you to get a Webflow going?
Speaker 1:Not very much, I think I. I'm just thinking about even outside of the you know sort of of the company. I didn't know I didn't grow up learning English, right, I mean, I don't know about you, but, um, english wasn't my first language until I was like 15, 16, and I decided to to study here, and that's when I was like, oh my god, I need to learn English, but that's it. It wasn't taught like it was taught at my school, but like it wasn't really taught at my school. So I had to do it, like externally a little bit, and and just reading, you know, changing the settings on my phone to English, right, like small stuff, like that. But I had to do all of that.
Speaker 1:And then I moved here alone effectively, and I started university, which, you know, the level of English you have to have is really really high, is really really high. So I think I pick up stuff quite well. And also, with Webflow, right, I didn't know how to build a platform, a website. I had no idea, but I like to learn new things. I get really excited, which is why I really like entrepreneurship. You can really dive into so many things, but I think there's also a limit, right, for example, like I'm not a machine learning engineer, learning engineer, sure, I would be able to pick up on things, and I've learned how to code a little bit right. But you know, a 10 minute ml engineer works is 10 hours of me, right? So it would take me 10 hours.
Speaker 1:So I also recognize that there's a time element that is very important and an expertise that goes beyond of like okay, I can pick it up, but how long would that take me. And also there's so time element that is very important and an expertise that goes beyond of like okay, I can pick it up, but how long would that take me, and also there's so many things to do. I think I'm better suited at what I'm doing now and also overseeing more of the clinical and the product, rather than building the ai um. So I think it's important to also have people that are really good and do the stuff that you don't know how to do or like, are not really good at, and they come up with things you haven't even thought about.
Speaker 2:That's the best part yeah, and it's at the end of the day, you would waste more money by you doing it than having someone that knows what they're doing doing it.
Speaker 2:No, you, no, you've had it a lot more challenging than I did growing up and coming to UK, because I know like my mom lives in Italy and my sister used to live in Italy, in Bologna, and I visit them and I can see how there is not much exposure to English. Like all of your TV, cable TV is dubbed, everything is Italian, italian, italian, whereas in Romania that's a completely different story. So we had like captions. We don't have dubbed television, so we could hear English quite a lot and a lot of the online things were in English as well. So I had a lot easier than you coming in and doing university and PhD not had access to English until you know 14, 15, 16, when you say I mean Netflix wasn't there.
Speaker 1:So you know it wasn't like, oh, I could just turn on the TV and watch Netflix with a subtitle. But also, I'm not from Bologna, I'm not from a northern big city, I'm from the south, which is a very different sort of reality as well. In terms of English, let's say um, you know, people speak dialect and Italian. They don't speak English. I mean, english is even further than in places like Bologna, milan, where there's a lot of tourists. There's a big university in bologna. People come and go all the time where I'm from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, let's say it's different but I mean your english is like subliminal, so it's it does sound like you. You have um a way of understanding, like a visual, and is it called auditive memory, probably oh wait, the, the hearing, yeah, I think odd, I would say odd interesting question see, I put you in a conundrum right now.
Speaker 2:Um, okay, so that that makes sense, you're thinking of bringing the the people that you're currently working with um full time. Once you get that, um, you're gonna hire someone for the ai stuff, any marketing roles that you're thinking of hiring?
Speaker 1:for and what would be your?
Speaker 1:first role that you'd bring that will be literally, um, a b2c person with experience in also growing. You know, communities and marketing. That's the other person that we we we would have post-race for sure and the technical person. These two people are key because one will grow and improve the platform and the other one will grow the numbers and speaking to more people, how can we create a community that is even more accessible and helpful for women, so that one is a person that has a commercial experience, a sales experience and a marketing experience?
Speaker 2:And are you looking to hire local in uk or remote?
Speaker 1:I mean I do you not care I'm flexible, but I do think that it's better and and nicer to see people face to face. I think it's just exciting to work with someone and then go to dinner together. You know, having a drink together it's just, it's more human, so that's that's your academia talking right now, I'm joking?
Speaker 2:no, it's, it's a screen all the time we live in such a divided world when it comes to work related practices, I'm I'm leaning towards. Although I built a business that was fully remote it was just me and Nikki, because you just meant Nikki in the same house and room and everyone was across the globe but it also grew quite a lot over the pandemic and everything. So we've done that. So it might sound as a hypocrisy for me to say this, but I've always kind of preferred working with people in person, exactly for the reasons that you mentioned, because even professionally, I grew up in London working a nine to five and you know, hanging out with, with folks going for lunches, going for a drink, and like the amount of ideas and inspiration and that connection with people that you make, and that's irreplaceable to me. But it depends on who you ask. There's so many people coming into the workforce now that um just don't want to hear about working in the same office with someone I respect hybrid working.
Speaker 1:I think hybrid is the best because you can have a chance to see someone. But the thing is, if they're really far away, if they're outside of the UK, then it's harder to meet as well. But if you know if someone is in Brighton, another person's in London, you can meet up right, you don't have to go. I don't believe that the nine to five thing is what you know makes a company successful, because you can be nine to five in the same room and do no work right. It's not about that, but it's more like if I want to meet with you and have like a drink with you and talk about work and brainstorm ideas, but also have that personal relationship, if you don't meet face to face, that's really hard. So having someone in the vicinity, in the proximity of you, know where you are, helps a little bit with that. But that doesn't mean you have to work from the office every day. I mean I really enjoy working from home sometimes. It's really really useful. I don't do the commute saves time, um, and I'm more relaxed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so open yeah, I mean people hear me think, say that I love working with people in person and think that, um, I might want to, you know, have a business where I, and kind of like, structure it in such a way that I do that. I'm not, I'm a pretty much democracy type of guy. Yeah, like if, if the the people want to work from home and that's all they want. Like I put my personal likings and interests aside, like I did once when I wanted everyone in our team to. I wanted to buy everyone the meta quest and for us to work in the virtual offices.
Speaker 1:Okay. And I was overruled by the the team, a majority of the team voting against that, so yeah, but I think also there's, you know like, especially if people have a family, you know kids and stuff and or like maybe even we've been talking about pain for like a while, but like you know people have different needs, like even physically.
Speaker 1:They might, you know, they might have a day or a couple of days a week that they want to work from home because it's easier. All of that I think it's even working in in this area. It would be very hypocritical of me to just say, oh, you either work from the office or like there's no way, like absolutely not. I mean, it's just you do what works for you, right, and I think there's no right way to do it. It's whatever works within the company and the people, uh, in the team. I don't know about you, but yeah, it's very personal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I don't think I'm ever gonna have a, a company where I don't want to get like have to put together, unless there's something very specific where people need to be in the office and they work with stuff. That's very. Yeah, you know high level security type of stuff then yes, but other than that, in your field, in the roles that you had was it is usually mandatory to be like an in on-site um roles um no, it's been a mix.
Speaker 1:Some of them have been office space, some of them have been completely remote. Actually, I've had a job that was completely remote oh, wow.
Speaker 2:So all of your research, all of the all of the work that in the tasks that you were doing were remote, the industry.
Speaker 1:One was remote and another, one was hybrid. The one before was going to clinics, the one that my first, first role, um yeah, so it's been a mix remote, non-remote but you're an office, want to meet people type of person I not necessarily.
Speaker 1:I like to work like I was about to high five you, but it's fine I like to go like, say like I like to have a couple of times a week that I work from home sometimes, um, but I think, yeah, I don't, I don't know, I think hybrid. I think I'm quite hybrid actually. I think I like a bit of a mix. I like to go to the office, speak to people, but also sometimes work from home. I just think if someone's really far away, then you can never do that and I think that's a bit of a shame. You want to work on something together?
Speaker 2:and grow together. So, yeah, yeah, we've had people everywhere in the globe and, oddly, we had one team offside in our entire jigsaw company existence. We had an offside just before we got acquired and then we got acquired and that was it. But it was fun, right. What are you looking what? What are you looking up for the most when it comes to your future as a founder, let's say?
Speaker 1:As a founder. Oh my God, that's a really big question.
Speaker 2:Because it's a new thing. It does seem like it's a new thing to you. It's a new experience. You got into this. I don't know if you ever thought about it, but it doesn't sound like it was something that you were initially thinking of going down the route of you wanted to be into academia, education, science, all of these things. So I know it's a challenging, be it's. It's. It's a challenging question, but have you ever thought what are where? Do you kind of like see yourself what? What's? What's the thing that you're excited about when it comes to your future?
Speaker 1:as you know, the founder of the company that you're running, so, to me, the thing that excites me the most is actually having a global impact. Right, I know that this is not this landscape that I portrayed, right, about these issues, women in pain and all of that. It's not only the UK. This is a problem, huge problem in the US, big problem pretty much everywhere in the world. So, to me, if the way that these conditions and pain in pelvic pain in men and women gets destigmatized and treated effectively through what we do, I'm really happy with that, I am.
Speaker 1:The future to me is just a is a future where a person doesn't need to wait 10 years to get a diagnosis and then they're told, oh, maybe you should have a glass of wine. I mean, that to me is, you know, like when there's actual treatment and validation, and for us to be able to contribute in that way. For me, that's, that is the goal, like I want nothing else but that. Um, I was gonna say something else, but but now I forgot. Ah, yes, and also, I think, advancing the basic research, like I know now we're in the therapeutic area, but also like we still don't know. Right, we were talking about vulvodynia. We don't know what causes it, we don't know what happens, I think also advancing that potentially also having parts of us as a research company right.
Speaker 1:To me that's really exciting. We're already sort of speaking with King's College London, collaborating with them to do some work, some research with them. So I think that's also something that excites us quite a lot, not being something that's just therapy but also doesn't advance the research itself. I think if we create more research, it can feed into the product and you know, sort of a loop right, making more impact and and everything else hypothesis here yes let's, let's play a little game.
Speaker 2:If you'd have, say, two years from now, everything's going really well, you're growing, making revenue, growing. The team exposure around this topic is increasing and around your solution you get a really good offer to get acquired. But the asterisk here. You're not allowed to stay, you have to move on.
Speaker 2:Basically, you get your exit, the company gets acquired, everyone goes, but without you right. You take your cut, which is basically your company. You sold it, have your money and you know, do whatever you want to do from there onwards. But you don't. You're not involved in this topic anymore and under the contractual agreement you can't be involved for five, ten years in this okay industry. What do you?
Speaker 1:do in wait outside of the company as well, like I can't be involved in in any pelvic pain stuff. No, that's tough, but wait even like on any level academic, industry, everything commercial, no you have to change.
Speaker 2:If you're gonna go like do again academic and research and science stuff, you need to to to tackle a different topic not yeah I don't know, that's really difficult. I think let's say it's a really good um financial, um reward for you. I don't have to answer it. I'm getting upset. You can see my face.
Speaker 1:I'm like I don't know, I don't know. I walked away from it a couple of times and it really didn't go very well. I was really thinking about this all the time I walked away, like between my master's and PhD. I walked away. I did HIV research and I was like I want to go back to that. After my PhD I was like Claudia, give it a try. Work on something else I was. I want to do this, so I don't know.
Speaker 2:Just don't start crying, okay, you don't need to tell me now.
Speaker 1:I think it largely, largely, depends on who the people behind this are, I think. If they don't align with my values or the values of the companies, I don't think so. I think there needs to be a handover that's in line with what we want and what we value.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that is, yeah that anyways happens in like, it doesn't matter whether you're staying or you're leaving, right, and especially when, if you're exiting and leaving the company in others hands, usually the, the knowledge transfer, matters a lot.
Speaker 2:It. It's an interesting question, no, because you know, you don't know, that's the reality of it and the. The question was more in a sense of to get the um, um, to get the feeling of your attachment to this right right now, because people change along the way, people change right, you might reach, you might start reaching stages of success that start fulfilling you right, and even if you're quite interested still in the topic and I'm not saying this is going to happen but maybe a big organization with a great team comes along and, you know, wants to kind of like, take over the, the research and continue all of that, and you might be at a stage in your career where they're like well, I've achieved a lot of things in this um field, I'm happy to let it go. Or you might be like no, we still haven't touched the golden it's hard to know.
Speaker 1:You're right. In a sense, I think there's a lot of yeah, you're right, there might be, there probably will be. We don't know. I mean, this is such a it's not a niche area, but like there's not a lot of people working on this, but this will change. Right areas come and go. There was no hrv research in the like 70s, I believe, or whatever, and then it exploded right by the 90s is a lot more focus and there were loads of good people. So I think, if that is, if that happens, there's so many talented people that could work on this problem and I think why not?
Speaker 2:and just so so exciting and just wait until your product becomes quite popular.
Speaker 2:You'll find a lot of clones and competitors, and just wait for that.
Speaker 2:You're, I think, you're in a really good position because you're first in a sense, and you have that competitive advantage, right, um?
Speaker 2:But as soon as something becomes quite popular, it's a lot of a lot of um, companies and individuals will follow with their own research, with this, with this, with that and. But you know, you can only be proud of that because all of a sudden, look what you've done right, if, if your brand becomes popular and you're selling and there's customers and people talk talking about you, not only that, you're going to have competitors or more solutions out there, but in a sense, there's going to be more research, there's going to be more white papers around it. So all of a sudden, you last year or in 2021, when you've done the research and realizing, getting frustrated that there's no, no research out there, all of a sudden, come 2025, let's say, there's a wealth of research because everyone wants a piece of the pie right now and that's for the good of your customers and who you're, who you're targeting. At the end of the day, that was your main purpose.
Speaker 1:I want to make this thing not be such a taboo thing anymore yeah, I mean I do already see it, by the way, because, like there's um, I do have a an honorary position at kings and I can see some researchers or or lecturers getting in touch and collaborating on volvodinia research that would have.
Speaker 1:I would have never said this was going to be a thing like it was. I I I never heard of it or read of it, like when I was doing my own phd, and now, a few years later, it's not many years later. Then there's people working on this and we're collaborating on potential phds in vulvodynia. So things do change, so that's really really exciting to see yes, and I'm doing my part as well.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm going to distribute this, you know, wide and tall, to get more awareness around it. Of course, I usually end this session with three questions, flash questions, which you didn't know about, but I told you just before we started, so I forgot them actually, okay so the first one is a quote that you live by oh, it's so lame the quote it does you read my mind because I was about to say it doesn't matter how popular or eloquent it is Okay. Whatever it is.
Speaker 1:Okay. One is you can't push the river.
Speaker 2:You can't push the river, true, you can't.
Speaker 1:I know. Do I need to explain what it means? I'm sure it's.
Speaker 2:Is it an Italian saying?
Speaker 1:No, no, no.
Speaker 2:Or is it you can't push the river or you can't push against the river?
Speaker 1:You can't push the river Like yeah, sort of implied against, Because you can't swim against the currents, kind of like, or. No, that sometimes you need to stop struggling with changing things when they're going in a certain direction and let them be um so, knowing where to allocate your attention right, um, focusing on what you want to focus, and if something is going in a certain way, don't try and change it. It has its own thing, but also equally change what you can change. So it's a bit.
Speaker 1:It's kind of a meditative sort of thing. You know, don't, don't try to modify things, you can't. A book stoic?
Speaker 2:yes it is a book that change your life, either be a professional book or something that's more personal two books, um.
Speaker 1:One is called the happiness trap by russ harris. It's a very good book on pretty much. I mean it's not stoic, but it's about making making like I guess pain, whether it's about making like I guess pain, whether it's psychological, physical, whatever, but like uncomfortable experiences, they're part of the human nature, but it's how we deal with them that really makes a difference. If we start to struggle with them, if we were like, oh, I don't want to feel pain, that that in itself creates a problem, right, rather than accepting things for what they are and moving on and going towards what you really value in life. So that's one. And actually the second book is sort of similar. It's called the Choice.
Speaker 1:I want to say I don't remember the author, but it's a person I know. It's very. It sounds very heavy, heavy, but it's actually very uplifting. It's about a person who survived Auschwitz and she became a therapist trying to heal and help people who live with psychological difficulties, and it's all about having a choice, right. She said I couldn't. You know, it wasn't my choice to be there, to have this experience when I was so young, but I can choose how I live after that, and that's so powerful if she can overcome that.
Speaker 1:Her whole idea is that anyone, everyone else can, but not this missing pain that other people feel, but sort of saying, like how can you move forward?
Speaker 2:yeah, as in not ignoring it or trying to basically lie to yourself that it doesn't exist, but actually acknowledging it and living with it, better with it, living a better life with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:And third question a good habit that you advocate for exercise is such a good habit I think, like, like movement, exercise is so good for your mental health.
Speaker 1:Um, I actually saw a post that you talked about exercising yeah, I posted at 1 am last night but I think there starts to be more like, I guess, coverage and evidence about the the positive effect of exercise, even for mental health, especially mild depression, and it's so, so important. I think exercise and food, good food, right, making your own meal, sometimes like as a self-care act, I think it's so nice, um, I mean sure, ordering going out, yes, but also taking the time to make something you really like, I think that's really really, really powerful yeah, yeah, especially, especially coming from italy, where cuisine is is no no, I talk about food.
Speaker 2:No I think I'm like, I do feel that um cuisine and cooking and um certain dishes are religious in italy and for italians. So I feel that, uh, you know you have to be another episode.
Speaker 1:yeah, I, I, I love food, but I'm not going to go into that. I love cooking, I love food. I just you know.
Speaker 2:anyways, please, Well, you see, there you go. So I feel that you have to do that. But also, I don't know if you find this, but if you eat out all the time and you take away like a lot of this food is so fatty, so bad for you, I I just cannot like my, my, if, if let's say I can't cook for a week because I'm busy and I'm just doing delivery all the time, just my body says after a week, stop, I don't like, I don't want this anymore.
Speaker 1:There is um another book that I read. It's called ultra processed people. I don't know if you've read it. It talks about ultra processed food, which is a whole different topic for I guess another day. But it talks about how, um, there's a lot of like additives and like things added to food that, especially when you eat out, right, you don't really know what you're buying um, because you know it's in, it's whatever, it's a dish, right, so you can't know what they've put in it. But a lot of ingredients are not in their natural state anymore. So, um, a lot of cooking ingredients. So it's really, really fascinating. Like very industrial chemical food and all of that um. So I I hear you, when I'm out all week and I eat out, I feel groggy. I just don't feel as good yeah, but I'm also italian, so I have a problem.
Speaker 1:I love food, I love making food.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, um, well, definitely we can have another episode just talking about food and all of this stuff we're excited, um, but thank you for for coming over, thank you for having a conversation about this, these topics around pelvic pain, which are, you know, probably still quite taboo, but you're doing your contribution into making it less so and making it less of a it's normal, put up with it and so on, when it's really not, and none of us should go through pains and suffering. So I appreciate that and anything that I can do. I also didn't realize that you're such a youngster founder, to be honest.
Speaker 2:You started a year ago exactly your business, which is awesome. So anything that I can do to help you in your journey, um, be it with advice, be it with introducing you to um to people that can help you, just let me know more than happy to contribute.
Speaker 1:You didn't realize that, uh, because I I've been working a lot, so it sounds like I've been running for more than a year well.
Speaker 2:No, you know when, when we met, you were very confident and when I asked, what is it that you do, what is it that your company does, you were very snappy at it, and usually people that are confident in this way have had some journey into establishing that, and I've talked about this on the podcast before. Even with us, like, it took a while for us to scope and shape and polish our messaging and for me to be able to go wherever and say what my company does and talk about it with such ease. And you know, excitement. You always have excitement, but it's harder to find the words in a sense. So, um, probably because of that, but it's probably because you're coming from this um background and you've done quite a lot of research on the topic that um, it helped you adjust to talking about it.
Speaker 1:I suppose oh yeah, I say, oh, I got, because then I'm gonna be censored on youtube maybe no people, people swear, I mean you know, I, I, I every day or not every day, but I, I speak to, you know, investors, angels, about vaginal pain, vulvas, everything. I just yeah, it's been too many years, it doesn't faze me anymore, just just say the words all the time yeah I know what you mean yeah, no.
Speaker 2:So thank you so much and, um, yeah, we'll see you on the next gourmet episode. I know.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me.
