Misfit Founders
Misfit Founders
The Challenges of International Taxation and Brexit VAT Complexities - a Chat with SimplyVAT's Founder
Join us through the highs and lows of entrepreneurship as we host the founder of SimplyVAT, Claire Taylor, in this episode of Misfit Founders.
Celebrating ten years of helping companies through the complexities of VAT regulations and the challenges of e-commerce, our guest shares the real and unfiltered difficulties of running a business.
Pay attention as we uncover tales of betrayal and trust, detailing how Claire overcame attempts by some employees to hijack client relations, and highlighting the restorative power of open communication in regaining balance and control.
This founder's story acts as a comprehensive guide in the intricate skill of business leadership and the importance of robust methodologies and the value of persistence amidst the constantly shifting landscapes of business.
⭐ Subscribe to this channel 👉 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnH68ixWKdhqD1hPZh3RuzA?sub_confirmation=1
⭐ Join the Misfit Founder community 👉 https://nas.io/misfits
⭐ Connect with Biro 👉 https://www.linkedin.com/in/sir-biro/
⭐ Connect with Claire👉https://www.linkedin.com/in/claire-taylor-21816130/
-------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER
By accessing this Podcast, I acknowledge that Misfit Founders makes no warranty, guarantee, or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this Podcast. The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this Podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this Podcast is done at your own risk. This Podcast should not be considered professional advice. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Misfit Founders does not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned in this Podcast, and information from this Podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third party materials or content of any third party site referenced in this Podcast do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of Misfit Founders. The Misfit Founders assumes no responsibility or liability for the accuracy or completeness of the content contained in third party materials or on third party sites referenced in this Podcast or the compliance with applicable laws of such materials and/or links referenced herein. Moreover, Misfit Founders makes no warranty that this Podcast, or the server that makes it available, is free of viruses, worms, or other elements or codes that manifest contaminating or destructive properties.
MISFIT FOUNDERS EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.
The vision was to own my own company so I could have long lunches and go off to yoga in the day. You don't get how it feels to have your own business when you work for someone else. I think people think it looks easy and it's easy for employees to shout from the signage you should do this, you should do that. You know I could do it better. And then when you're in it, it's just another, another universe. Well, we had a couple of people come. They got together in a business not in a, you know, a personal relationship. They came to me and said they were leaving in a week and they were going to set up on their own and they were going to take our clients. And I was just in shock. Yeah, and we had Skype for business at the time and I could see one of them was messaging her husband saying how they were gonna get in touch with our clients and passing information to and fro about our clients and everything.
Speaker 2:I had to get the lawyers involved that seems like a lawsuit level type of mute to me it's nice to get out the mayhem for a couple of hours. Oh yeah, you being busy nowadays, this time of the year.
Speaker 1:We're always busy, yeah, always. So it's not just Tax waits for no man, yes, tax and debt.
Speaker 2:You know the saying. Thank you for joining me. We've had a lovely conversation over a call a while ago. Would be great to maybe start off with an introduction of what Simply VAT is and then we'll discuss a bit about your career path, because you have a pretty interesting background and I want to dive into that. So maybe a couple of words of what Simply VAT is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Simply, vat is a VAT compliance service provider focused at e-commerce businesses. So we help e-commerce businesses trade internationally, so we look after their VAT registrations and their other obligations, the VAT returns and the different reportings in the different countries. So yeah, it's quite a dry subject.
Speaker 2:Well, it's actually not, because I feel like there are so many brands out there, e-commerce businesses that struggle with being able to tax internationally. It's a big problem. Earlier was telling me oh, I'm like I can't wait to set up and afford to to work with uh, with clara, simply vat, because she's gonna need that once she she starts uh selling her products internationally and, in general, um, dealing with all of the taxes and all of this stuff stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's um. It is a complicated landscape um the um eu. There is an eu directive um called veda v18 the digital age um and they're trying to simplify it for um online sellers, um for for everybody really businesses in the digital age. Because there's so much advancement with technologies it's hard for everyone to keep up, especially the tax authorities. So we really work to we try and provide a service that you know makes the seller feel like it's frictionless trade. That feels impossible after Brexit.
Speaker 2:Tell me about it. My bugbear but we do our best. I'm curious did you start Simply VAT after Brexit or before?
Speaker 1:No, before 2013 was its inception and we launched I say we because I said we a lot in the early days. When you're one person, it's fine, it makes it feel bigger.
Speaker 2:I use we all the time. Now I have someone that's helping me with Misfit Founders, but from the early days I was like we at Misfit Founders.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we launched the website in January 2014. So 10 years next year? Oh, next month.
Speaker 2:Congrats. Happy anniversary 10 years of a business is a lot. It's impressive.
Speaker 1:Shocking.
Speaker 2:Let me not use the word a lot. Oh, 10 years. I suppose your business has seen a lot in the world because you've been part of quite a few changes in 10 years in UK.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when I started SimplyVat, the VAT world had been pretty static. The rules and regulations hadn't really changed that much. The regulations hadn't really changed that much. And then, yeah, come 2015, 2016, it really started to change and, yeah, there's kind of been an explosion in regulation changes, partly caused by Brexit, partly caused by the EU wanting to update the regulations to suit the digital age. Yeah, so it's been a lot as the youngsters. Yeah, so it's been a lot.
Speaker 2:as youngsters say, there's been a lot going on and how did, uh, how did um the brexit impact your, did it impacted or do you? Did you actually um had more business because of that?
Speaker 1:um, no, people always ask that. I mean, there was a point when it was unfolding that people needed to understand what it meant for trade. So we did have a little increase in consultancy work. But really the main impact has come later, after the transition period ended, and we've seen a lot of you're right, that word's going to be used a lot We've seen a lot of businesses not being able to afford to continue to trade. So we've lost them as clients, they've gone out of business or they've consolidated back just to the local market. Yeah, it's been a big impact the last 18, 20, 24 months. Yeah, a lot of businesses can't afford to get their goods into the EU anymore. It's got really expensive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's what Em was saying as well. I think it's focusing in UK first and then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we had a lot of customers over the years being facilitated by the likes of Amazon that have set up fulfillment houses in the EU. There was a lot of trade going on, seamless trade, that really opened the international markets for a lot of sellers. Amazon provided the infrastructure and the sellers just pressed a button and they were off and we supported them with that compliance. But, yeah, that's all come to a grinding halt and I think it's kind of the untold story of Brexit. It's not mentioned as one of the catastrophes. It's always COVID and the Ukraine, the ukraine war, but brexit's never mentioned by the government as something that's, you know, really harmed because it's always um, you know you, they would rather push the agenda of it's.
Speaker 2:It wasn't our fault, it's out of our control. Because, covid, because the um, the war in ukraine is not specifically they're doing so. I think they've. They've been a bit tactful at masking the fact that brexit has impacted uk quite a lot yeah, that, yeah, they've tried to.
Speaker 1:That's never, ever mentioned, um, which is interesting and it's obviously the party line, but I think it's shameful. The lack of accountability we always talk about it at work. You know being accountable and then you know you look at the government and you just go, wow, you're not. You know you're not even being a role model. You know the lack of accountability is criminal, I think role model.
Speaker 2:You know the lack of accountability is is criminal, I think. I mean I think I've a lot of people have stopped calling uh, anything that the government do as a role model approach to things.
Speaker 1:It's like we're in a post-truth world, isn't it? It's a bit odd, it's scary so with um simply vat.
Speaker 2:So with Simply VAT, is it strictly services or do you have a product as a platform?
Speaker 1:Well, we provide services, but we're just launching what we call our self-service product.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is really exciting. It's been a long time coming, a sad story of failed software development. That we've got there and yeah, it's really exciting. It's called Tribexa and we're starting with. It provides self-service IOS VAT registration, which is the Import One Stop Shop EU VAT registration. That actually helps facilitate the smaller businesses trade into the EU. Any goods under 150 euros can be and not sold on a marketplace like Amazon can be. The tax can be accounted for through the IOS registration. So that's really exciting and we're launching that now with our customers, um, existing customers and new customers. So, yeah, and then that will go on a journey next year on a roadmap to kind of encompass a lot more, uh, different countries and registrations.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so for now is eu, yeah, okay do you. Okay. Do you need to be you as a company? Do you need to be regulated or any way to be able to provide these services?
Speaker 1:No, we don't. Vat is kind of outside the scope of regulation. We're not an accountancy company, if you like, and there's best practice um initiatives, um being, um, you know, pushed by hmrc, but you know, we we always um are ethical in what we do and how we work.
Speaker 2:so, yeah, but no, there's no formal regulation right and um, but I suppose you do have an interesting question. Does that? Also? Because I was talking to someone that was working in services and giving advice on certain things, be it financial or not, and they were telling me that they need to have really good insurers and liability insurance and things like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it got really expensive after COVID.
Speaker 2:It did it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we were paying like 15 grand a year I think, and it went up to about 100 grand a year just because the insurer's appetite kind of really changed after or during COVID. So yeah, that was shocking for the business.
Speaker 2:What's the connection there, because maybe I'm not seeing it. Why increase?
Speaker 1:I think a lot of companies got burned by COVID and they had to pay out a lot. So they were much more kind of circumspect about what they were insuring and the cost of that insurance.
Speaker 2:We're kind of out of COVID. You'd expect the prices to go back to.
Speaker 1:No, because I think the market shrunk as well. It's hard to find providers with an appetite for it. So no, the price hasn't gone down.
Speaker 2:So you're saying you're paying 100 grand yeah?
Speaker 1:nearly yeah Per year. Yeah, yeah, that is a lot on down. So wait, you're paying. You're saying you're paying 100 grand. Yeah, nearly yeah per year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that is a lot yeah so you need to make a quite a quite a substantial revenue.
Speaker 1:Yeah just to cover for that yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's um, you know, something that we have to have yeah and especially with tax and vat, things are open to interpretation.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's what I was thinking, yeah yeah, we can't not work with it.
Speaker 1:You know we it's a non-negotiable yeah so you started, uh, 10 years ago.
Speaker 2:How was the was? Was the vision always to get the company where it was today?
Speaker 1:And maybe talk a bit about the early days of your company. The vision was to own my own company so I could have long lunches and go off to yoga in the day. The driving force.
Speaker 2:Which is completely fine. I see a bit of a you know, of a retention there to say that. But I, like I've been a big preacher of you should be doing and acting based on what your values are. And but I think again, there's still this stigma of if you're not in it to change an industry or solve the world's problems, you're in it for the wrong reasons. But that's not true. You know, each with its own at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'd kind of got made redundant and, yeah, just needed to earn a living, but I thought it would be fun to have my own business. And yeah, it was about the freedom for me and not being told off at work Not that I got told off a lot, but what were you doing before for work? I worked for an international VAT company, but they were on VAT recovery, so a different product if you like, right, yeah, so reclaiming VAT for big, big, big corporates.
Speaker 1:So I worked, I was heading up client management there and then, yeah, my boss asked me to set up a kind of offshoot of that or help him launch a data analysis company. So he gave me a budget and, yeah, kind of got that to market and got some clients. But then it I really enjoyed that and I think that's what really piqued my appetite. Yeah, it was really fun getting that to market. But then it was an easier sell for that company to work from a VAT angle. So then, you know, ended up kind of being in competition with a VAT angle. So then, you know, ended up kind of being in competition with a VAT company, which was just pointless. So we agreed that I would dip out and I'd been there like 17 years so I was ready 17 years for that specific company.
Speaker 1:Well, not for the data one, for the VAT company. Then I spent a couple of years on the data company, yeah, but that was. That was a small company that kind of grew and consolidated and I think when you work for a small company you're never bored, you know, you're always.
Speaker 2:Very true yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're kind of jack of all trades, I think yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's what kept you there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And before that, what were you doing?
Speaker 1:um, before that I actually um lived in london. Um, so I worked for, um, a retail consultancy company, um supporting the directors there. So that was completely different, but again kind of on client management side, um, so, yeah, that's been um, yeah, up until that. Up until I came to brighton, um, I hadn't been involved in international vat, and that was about 1997. Yeah, I got involved with it so what?
Speaker 2:what made you move to Brighton then?
Speaker 1:um quality of life really, um working in London, living in London, um yeah, have you lived in London?
Speaker 2:I did for eight years yeah did you?
Speaker 1:yeah, we kind of know having a hundred thousand kind of um potential. You know unknown strangers in your face for breakfast every morning and you go well, this is intense yeah, it's intense, and I was coming down to brighton a lot to visit friends and party I thought, yeah, quality of life do you like the um, the vibe, the frequency, the less crazy and intense, uh, frequency of brighton world yeah, um, yeah, and I remember I commuted for a little while, um, when I moved to brighton, and then I I actually got the job with my old boss, um, yeah, so I started working with him in the international VAT recovery space.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that was yeah.
Speaker 2:How old were you when you moved to Brighton?
Speaker 1:30-something 37, 34.
Speaker 2:I can't remember Okay in the 30s no 34,. Yeah, the 30s 34, yeah, early 30s yeah right and then and before that you were having a um career in london, working as a professional there. You had um. Was it one single job, like like this other one for 17 years, or did you have multiple jobs in london?
Speaker 1:um, multiple jobs, and I was abroad, uh, for a couple of years as well, worked for a clothing company in Bali and Australia Kind of followed the sun round for a couple of years.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 1:So came back to London in the summer and then went out kind of in the season.
Speaker 2:So yeah, distant memory now but you've been in the professional um employment landscape for a very long time. Yeah, and 10 years ago you started your first business yeah what, how? How did you? Because I know a lot of people that are very, in their very mature stage of being a professional and they've been pursuing a career for a long time. It's very daunting sometimes to say I'm going to leave all that and start my own thing, especially after working 17 years for the same company.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it was naivety. I kind of got this company going for my boss and I forgot he was paying me every month. But so yeah, it was naivety. But I had a bit of redundancy money and had some savings and I just I have to be honest, I think as well I was like you know how else I have an opportunity to maybe pay the mortgage off without you know, working till you're 70 or something. So it was just give it a go. What's the worst that could happen?
Speaker 2:give it a go. What's the worst that could happen? And were there those? Did those worst happen while you in in the early days of your business um, or was it a smooth ride at the beginning?
Speaker 1:it wasn't smooth. I think I spent about a year networking with no clients, um, so that was really hard work and I, yeah, I was trudging up to London networking, going places and not realizing when it kind of actually toppled. You're sowing acorns all the time and people are getting to know you. So, yeah, I remember talking to my dad and he was like I'll just give it. I think it was Christmas um 2013, no 2014, going into 2015. He, I'll just give it. I think it was Christmas 2013,. No 2014, going into 2015. He said I'll give it to late policy, how you do. And then, yeah, it started to. Those acorns started to grow and I got an email, a very fairly innocuous email, from somebody that turned out to be a big Amazon seller, that was a partner in a massive Amazon peer-to-peer group that had reached in the States, and they asked me to go to a conference in Kentucky to talk at an Amazon seller conference. Yeah, and I think I had five grand left in the bank and I thought, sod it, I'm going to go.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, yeah, Give it all for this one shot, yeah, and that was it.
Speaker 1:Never looked back. It was amazing, like this conference was America's amazing. There's no ceiling of limitation. There were, like, every sort of person from every walk of life young people, older people, grannies there, you know wanting to sell internationally. So I got introduced, you know, to the conference and then I felt like Justin Bieber or something. I was like six deep in people wanting to talk to me about VAT.
Speaker 2:They knew you, or was it because they saw what you're advertising?
Speaker 1:Well, this Amazon seller was on stage talking about selling internationally and he said oh, claire Taylor's here from Simply that. Talk to her if you need to know about the taxes. And that was it.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, floodgates opened and I'd booked some time in Florida afterwards and I went and I just didn't stop working. The emails started to flood in, and flood in, and flood in and it went on like that for a couple of years. It was bonkers.
Speaker 2:How amazing is that? Imagine letting it go a couple of months before and then having to say to this individual well, actually I've closed down, I got a job now and never making it happen. I think a lot of the times, you know, there's this thing about grit, which is super important, but I think luck also plays a lot of a part of it.
Speaker 1:um, and you mentioned someone that said give it was that my dad, yeah, your dad, yeah, yeah, he passed away this summer so, but yeah, he was my biggest fan, so yeah, he was good would you?
Speaker 2:would you have? Were you ready to close down when you? Because, to be honest, a year of you know, sharing your details, build, doing network, but not having anything tangible from a from a customer and revenue perspective would put a lot of people off yeah, I mean it.
Speaker 1:Um, I think I was getting a lot of stuff, you know, ready and collateral and that I don't know. I think I got a funded intern from Sussex Uni. She came and sat with me for the summer so kind of things you know, trying to get the marketing going. And I think a friend gave me one, one client, like a bit of business, and then one customer came in. I was like, ah, you know, so it was. It wasn't completely nothing for a year. I remember the intern saying to me I wish you had customers. I was like I wish I did too. Yeah, we're still in touch. She was great, absolutely great. But yeah, so we were doing all this marketing stuff and time was just going. And, you know, making connections with partnerships, yeah, fulfillment houses, things like the DIT and things like that. So, making all those relationships. Put an event on with the Chamber of Commerce here at the jury's end, you know, talking to online sellers. So, yeah, it was hard.
Speaker 2:Did that year of networking, apart from this one person from Amazon that shouted you out on stage and that got you quite interest there in, uh in us at that one specific event. Did any of the these networking efforts paid out later? Did you had any any? Anyone else that came along as like oh well, I didn't needed um vat help then, but need it now and so on, yeah, I mean yeah, that continually happens, um and has happened, yeah, um.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to think of specific examples. I think again one of the one of the early days as well. He's been a really good he's he's still a client, but came to me and I'm thinking how I got introduced to him. I can't remember, I think through the dit um, and he'd had two letters, uh, from the tax authorities, one from the french, one from the germans and they told him that he owed them a million euros each that's a pickle to be in yeah and um, he's um, he's a, he's a great person.
Speaker 1:He'd, he um, made his money in the 80s and 90s in the music business and then had launched this kind of almost hobby amazon business, but it was a multi-million pound business, um and um. So, yeah, they those the french and germans got in touch and he was like you know, can you help? Yeah, give it a go, he's great, they're really proactive. And he'd paid HMRC and trying to get the money back from HMRC. So, yeah, so we worked together to see what we could do to help that. And he also got a lawyer in germany that was really, really helpful and actually took on the german tax authority. And yeah, but um, he's always referring business to us that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's the the best way just having customers that are super happy with um the services, and because I've every single platform or service that I've used that I've been happy with. I've recommended left and right and I think that's important. Do you charge? Do you charge a flat fee or how does it work? This is a percentage of the um uh vat. How does it work usually with your services?
Speaker 1:um, we charge like a flat well, flat fees. So we charge a one-off fee for the registration which we ask for upfront, and then we charge. We work on a subscription model now, so we charge for the VAT returns, but it's kind of monthly, you know, spread out Because you need to do that return yearly. Well, it depends on the country.
Speaker 2:It be monthly could be quarterly, could be bi-monthly, could be by you know but it doesn't really matter at the end of the day because I that's what I've like. When we were doing um tax returns, we were using a company um to to do the tax tax returns for us. It's only once a year, but we were paying monthly smaller fees to distribute it like that rather than paying once a year when the tax submission happens.
Speaker 2:No, that's good In terms of the business. Do you? Are you at a stage now where you have more customer work than you actually need?
Speaker 1:in a sense, no, I think there was a patch between about 2016 and about 2020 or 2021 where we were absolutely inundated and the business just grew and grew. Um, yeah, quite, um, yeah, um. I just used to be kind of remember being at the natwest accelerator and just like I just had this stunned look on my face all the time because we were just caught in headlights and you know, there were other startup businesses they're going, oh, it's a nice problem to have and you're thinking, yeah, but it's really hard and make sure that you're keeping the clients happy and you're doing everything right, because there's consequences when we don't, you know, when we don't file on time, um, but now we have, um, it's kind of steadied out a bit and again we've been impacted by the churn from brexit. Um, so we're yeah, it's, it's um. I think the last couple of years we've been, we were, we never spent um, you know, on ppc or anything.
Speaker 1:Before it was all organic. Um, we might do events or um, you know, not a massive amount, but might go to america, or we. We had, um did a couple events in china. We had an office in china for a year, which is really good, fun, um, but we've never spent a lot of marketing and we've had to change that, now kind of be much more proactive, um, and the landscape's got much more competitive as well. When I started, there was literally maybe a handful of competitors, and now it's got busier and the competitors are tech savvy and deeper pockets and all this. So, yeah, it's been really challenging, but we're still standing and excited for the future with our software for the future with our software and the software.
Speaker 2:You, when, when did you decide that? You wanted to implement software part of your offering 2016 2016 okay, took a while so that is seven years yeah so basically, uh, after three years of your of your business doing in the early days you also mentioned you had quite a lot of work you decided what was it? Hey, you know what? We have so much influx of work. It would be great if we would have a self-service platform. Or what was the thinking to around the software?
Speaker 1:Yeah, to have a client portal and a VAT engine if you like, calculation engine to be able to process the VAT returns, because all of what we do is such a process. So I got investment in 2016,. A small amount of investment Well, you know, it was massive at the time and that was exciting. But got money in then and we kind of embarked on trying to build a software and then didn't, went through a couple of software companies, didn't have much success. And then 2019, 2020, got introduced um to a, a local um entrepreneur.
Speaker 1:That was very successful software developer kind of made his money looking around at something to not be bored. Yeah, he's so bright, so clever, yeah, and he, yeah, definitely keeps us on the straight and narrow. But he built our software along with our internal dev couple of people in lockdown. So then, 2020, they built, they built the software, um, the vat engine, if you like, um. So then we were using that internally so all the vat returns get processed automatically. Um, and then from that we've been um working towards the client portal kind of self-service angle on it.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, he managed to succeed where others failed so you, basically, when you say from uh 2016, 2020, um, you had a couple of um, you looked at a couple of companies Are you referring to? Did you awarded the project and they didn't implement properly, or what happened there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, there was a good go at building the kind of that calculation software, but, yeah, we just didn't. It didn't come together for whatever reason, and we swapped. I think one of the lead developers moved and then we swapped companies and tried again. Um, but it didn't work. And, um, the chap who's built it now he's he's invested in the company as well, so he's he's yeah, he's our investor. But yeah, we tried and that time goes quickly when you know the business was growing. We were literally there was one point in 2018 where you know, staff were coming in the door on a Monday and by the Friday, they were training the next one coming through, oh really.
Speaker 1:It was bonkers, absolutely bonkers.
Speaker 2:How big was your company at its biggest In terms of people?
Speaker 1:Yeah, a hundred.
Speaker 2:A hundred, yeah, okay, that's quite.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was quite shocking. Well, we were 50 when we went into lockdown and then it doubled in lockdown and then we're just kind of pulling back. We're getting more efficient, the automation's going in and the growth has slowed down because of, you know, the churn etc. So we're down to about 70 now.
Speaker 1:but yeah, it's a lot of people it is and and is the majority um working on the VAT submission services, so as in experts and people that help your company, cost your customer companies in submissions yeah, so we've got the onboarding team, which is a VAT registration team, and then the client management team is the biggest team and those are the people that do the VAT returns, and they're supported by a consultancy team. Um, yeah, and those are the kind of core, you know, operations if you like to get the customer.
Speaker 2:You know, make sure the customer, everything gets filed on time and the customer's happy as much as oh, yes, yeah, yeah um, yeah, I guess it's very intense and stressful for you as well because you have to submit those um vat return bits in time, and I suppose you do. Does it mean that you you're helping them submit in various um countries which would have different submission dates and different?
Speaker 2:yeah so it's all chaos in your company in terms of I'm joking, but like in terms of dates and so on, because if I think of, for example, a um, I don't know tax return here in uk, like everyone just bundles towards the end of the year to do their tax returns, but for you it sounds like everyone's actively working throughout the year because everyone's submitting at various times yeah, so.
Speaker 1:So we probably have about eight deadlines in a month for different countries every month, and then you've got the quarterlies for other countries and then you've got the annuals for other countries.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's a, it's a timetable and when you say a vat engine that you put together, does that this includes this managing of your customers, dates and countries and submissions and all of this stuff, right, yeah?
Speaker 1:but the um. But yeah, it's a portal for the client managers so they can go in and see which of the vat returns to for right, which clients and which countries. And um, the clients, um, the clients we deal with are all. A lot of them are entrepreneurial themselves. So you know people like Ems you're talking about, you know that are either starting out on their journey or you know that's what they do, that's their business is to sell online. So everybody's different. Everybody sends their data in differently, you know, or has different questions or have different needs. Some people really like handholding, other people know what they're doing and it's, you know, much more like touch. So we're trying to make all those processes uniform and much more easy to manage. But it's not like dealing with somebody in an accounts team or something who hasn't got kind of ownership of what they're doing. You know the entrepreneurs are really passionate. Vat taxes are thorn in their side. So, yeah, we try and support their emotional journey as much as their practical one.
Speaker 2:I suppose that seems very challenging to me, because it is an emotional bit of of a customer's journey and um you must have also patient, of an iron patient as as a, as an organization, with your, with your customers, because everyone's frustrated, everyone's stressed when the taxes come. So you, you do have to have certain level of skills in dealing with um, with customers, at when, when they're at their most intense, in a sense yeah, it's, it's not easy, but I think, I mean, I think I'm naturally a people please, and it's kind of grown up from that.
Speaker 1:So, um, we haven't always made great commercial decisions, but in terms of supporting the customers, you know, sometimes we've really gone, you know, out our way without getting paid for it, um, to make sure people are supported. But we're trying to, you know, make sure that we, we do support the customer, but that it's it's, it's sustainable for us as well. Um, but yeah, I think I think for me especially understanding how an entrepreneur feels, because if you've got everything coming at you a day and then you know the tax isn't going smoothly or you don't know what you're doing, um, so we do have that culture of the customer at the heart of what we do and the people we employ. You know they get such good reviews from customers and stuff. So, yeah, really proud of it. I mean, occasionally people get upset, um, which is really frustrating as well. We do, you drop the ball, but I kind of pride ourselves and we try and fix those mistakes as much as we can.
Speaker 1:But then you get the kind of keyboard warriors that are just mean for mean sake and they're not truthful either, and you can't have a bicker online about it. You've just got to kind of smile and and take it on the chin.
Speaker 2:but yeah, for the most part, uh yeah, the customers seem to appreciate what we do I've been on both ends, you know, I've been the keyboard, keyboard warrior, sometimes with some services that I used, and I've also been on the receiving end of our customers being keyboard warriors. Um, so I'm I'm curious how do you because you say you're you're a people pleaser by nature and and such, how do you instill that kind of serving um culture in your company?
Speaker 1:um, we do you talked about values early doors when we started talking and we um do have values, um that we kind of, well, we kind of we try and, um, you know, live our lives by at work and we instill, instill those. Uh, we've got five values um compassion, honesty, freedom, happiness and collaboration. Um, and in those values we've defined the behaviors that we expect. So things like freedom, and we had a democratic process. So when there was about 50 people in the company, we did a workshop and people chose these and I was like freedom, freedom, what is that going to mean?
Speaker 2:That sounds like mutiny. I know, I was like uh-oh.
Speaker 1:But it's one of my favorites now Because it's all about the freedom for the team to be creative with their solutions, but also, you know, the customer has freedom to get on with what they want to do, because we're providing a professional service, so they don't have to worry um it's those type of things, but as a business, um, the values are brilliant for informing people.
Speaker 1:If they've got a decision to make, they go back to the values and think you know, is that true to what simply that is about? And how you know, am I being collaborative? Am I making the customer happy? You know? Am I being, am I partnering with them to understand the needs and get them through this so they really inform? How you know, we expect, I expect people to behave in the business, and I think values are really interesting in everyday life as well. Sometimes when you find you're not aligned with people, it is because you've got a different set of values to them yeah yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:It's interesting there there is a strong kind of force, I think, to kind of live.
Speaker 2:Live your life by have you ever had a case in in the team where um someone was clearly not a fit from a values perspective?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And what was the end result with that? Did you have to fire them. Did they exit themselves or did you got them around to be more aligned with your values?
Speaker 1:I think there's different examples, it's not just one person. You know that's happened to over the years. We've had a lot of people sure, yeah, 100 people and circulating and hiring and others leaving along the way it's yeah you get a lot of characters, you get a lot of personalities and, yeah, culture traits yeah, I mean there was one particular time actually before we put the values in the business, where we had a couple of people come and um, they got together, which I didn't didn't know about they did.
Speaker 1:They got together in a business kind of um in a business, not in a relationship, you know, a personal relationship. And then they came to me and said they were leaving in a week and they were going to set up on their own and they were going to take our clients. And I was just in shock, what? Yeah, and we had Skype for business at the time and I could see one of them was messaging her husband saying how they were going to get in touch with our clients and passing information to and fro about our clients and everything. So I had to get the lawyers involved.
Speaker 2:That seems like a lawsuit-level type of mutiny.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was really mean actually. I mean, business can be mean, but you know, we're a nice company and it was interesting to see how they positioned it to justify what they were doing. So, yeah, so we kind of we shut, we did, I got the lawyers involved and we shut, you know, shut them down. And actually during that time clients were phoning saying so-and-so, had just got in touch with me what's going on? Um, and I really had to sing for our supper, but none of the clients liked the fact that these people had approached them like that, so they they stayed loyal, which was a you know, which was great, but it was, yeah, that was a brutal time.
Speaker 2:I think you were. You're also honestly lucky Because I've had. I've stopped contracting with a company because I had. There were a couple of their employees that went rogue and wanted to get me as a customer and I said I don't want any part of it like I.
Speaker 2:I think it's very unprofessional from from your employees to try to kind of like hook me yeah um, where they know that I'm your customer but in the same time, the fact that, like your, you have not taken control of this earlier on and it got to me. So I've stopped with a couple of companies. But I've also had companies that actually done damage control and I've stayed with them because of that, because they knew how to treat the situation in such a way that they made me comfortable that that was something that wouldn't happen. So I think it was the companies that I've dropped were because of their attitude towards that, that situation yeah, like it's interesting if you because of the company's attitude, like what were they not doing?
Speaker 1:What could they have done to catch it earlier?
Speaker 2:Well, not necessarily catching it earlier, but it felt a very blatant response from them. When a company goes a bit silent about the challenge and says, oh, don't worry about it, we'll handle it, it feels very disjointed and detached, versus, hey, we're really sorry about here's what happened, and you know, we feel terribly that this has happened and we want to keep you as a customer. And here's what's going to happen, here's our roadmap, here's how we're going to improve this. It's a completely different, it's a contrast, right? Versus someone replying to you. Right, thank you for letting us know and never messaging you again about that issue. It's like, no, you're not giving me the confidence that you're, you're changing or anything like that. If this happens, it's probably going to happen more and maybe you're going to leak my, my information as all right. It doesn't seem like you have control over what you're doing internally, whereas someone coming in and apologizing and really well communicating sorry, what that, what that was, and how they're treating that.
Speaker 1:That gives me confidence as a customer yeah, yeah, I'm not just saying it, we did do the latter.
Speaker 2:It was like I was on the phone to people talking them through and well, that's probably why people, yeah, stayed and still to this day.
Speaker 1:I mean, I got a whatsapp message from a client and he sent through a letter from the polish tax authority. Why can't you talk to your client manager? I mean, I didn't say it, but so I dealt with it, but I've still got that connection with a lot of clients. They, you know we're very approachable. Um, yeah, so yeah but that's.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't think that that's a rare um occurrence because, again, I've mentioned and I've had at least three occasions when that happened to me that, uh, someone went rogue in a company that I was a customer of, so it it's not very uncommon, but the thing is that you, you know there's I'm really curious on why people think that they can do this. I suppose you had your contractual employment agreements and everything to mention non-compete clauses and all of these things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I mean we did get the lawyers involved because they were so blatant and I had written evidence that you know they were trying to steal clients. Um, but yeah, um, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think. I think it's um, it's unpleasant, but it really helps you in your journey as as as a founder, because I've had to go through so many things with people, a variety of challenges, and then you become a bit of a self-analysis. You do a bit of a self-analysis and figure out well, this happened because of this, we need to get better at this, we need to do better at this, we need to do better at that, and so on, and they're all things that happen for a reason. I think it bakes you a bit as a founder and it helps develop certain skills in that sense.
Speaker 1:I know and I think well, I remember working, obviously for my boss and you you don't get it. You don't get how it feels to have your own business when you work for someone else. So I think people think it looks easy and it's easy for employees to shout from the sidelines you should do this, you should do that, you should you know I could do it better. And then when you're in it, it's just another, another universe of stress and yeah I think team members and employees are sometimes.
Speaker 2:I mean depends on who you're talking to.
Speaker 2:I don't want to generalize everyone, but I've been in so many situations where I was an employee at a company that I loved and there were so many people that were talking so much shit about the founders, about the leadership, about this and this and that, and it seems like sometimes there's this us against establishment type of attitude in some people. I'm not saying because I know a lot of lovely people that are the most understanding team members ever and, by nature, curious and ask questions. And the most surprised and the most pleasant conversations that I had with team members of mine were when they were asking questions about me, about my challenges as leading the company and so on, and also about the company's, this direction and this and that and just being general, genuinely curious about certain things, um, versus talking to other team members about ah, the beer is so rubbish at this, he's not doing all of that, ah, but not talking directly with you. I find that that is the hardest when that happens in a company. That is the hardest to solve.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have a great coach, business coach, that I've worked with over the years and man, it takes practice but I desperately try. But we've had kind of coaching sessions on they're called courageous conversation. So it's about, you know, partnering with people. So you know, I get people come at me from within the you know and you kind of go.
Speaker 1:I feel defensive, I feel yeah, yeah, you know it kind of knocks you and and it's about not reacting, not coming out fighting because you feel defensive, but about then kind of partnering and working out where their frustrations are coming from. And we, you know, we haven't had a session for a while, um, um, for a couple of years probably. But when I get, you know, those back in the business because I want to try and stop you, we haven't had a session for a while, for a couple of years probably, but I want to get those back in the business because I want to try and stop the backbiting, if you like, and people can have a conversation with someone or you actually made me feel, you know that made me feel uncomfortable. You know it's trying to practice those sort of skills. Yeah, I do think about it at work and try and stop that kind of gossip situation, but you can't. I think it's human nature.
Speaker 2:I think it makes it a lot harder. You're right If you're the type of leader that cannot take feedback, or if your team members even smell that you've felt insulted or that you take been taken back by the comment, it would just amplify or incentivize discussions outside you, outside your presence, in a sense. Because if you're, if you're not seen as a someone that's super into getting feedback and criticism over certain things and people don't feel like they can come openly to you to talk about certain things. I think that's in the occasions that I've seen this happen, it wasn't just the one too bad apple that always loves to gossip and to talk certain things, it was also leadership not being open to those conversations.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we do have those conversations. I do get challenged, I do take it, but it is hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it isn't easy and you are. However hard you try, like sometimes you can't do right for doing wrong as well. Like we were introducing bonuses a couple of months ago and there was, you know, a bit of a hoo-ha about that we're trying to do something nice here. It's really I don't know why things land um as they do, but I think as well I mean, I don't know if I'm too democratic sometimes. I think some people probably say you know I am, but do you know, take feedback and listen to what people are saying and why things have landed as they do, and then we adjust accordingly. Sometimes you know we might do something, um, and then the feedback comes after we've done it and then we have to adjust, kind of in flight. But yeah, you live and learn and you, you know, just keep doing our best.
Speaker 2:I think in challenging times, you know it's not, it's not easy I think you're also at a stage that I've never been in, which is I've only led smaller teams, startup teams and such and when you're at 10 people, it's a bit of a different type of company and you basically lead in a completely different way than when you have 100 people.
Speaker 1:I miss those days.
Speaker 2:I think because I've been part of bigger companies and teams and so on.
Speaker 2:I've always tried to keep things as small as possible for as long as possible, because that's one of the things that I don't know how to do, like I don't know how to be um pleasing absolutely everyone, and when you have a company that's a hundred or more, um, I think even from 50 onwards um you, like, you say everything that you put in place, there's gonna be criticism or concerns from one group, from the, from the team, or specific team members, and so on. It's very hard to to feel like you're doing right by everyone all the time when, like, because you're talking about bonuses, some people I know in my network are completely against bonuses, and then there's people that you know criticize companies that don't give bonuses, and and these people sometimes exist in the same company. So it gets very difficult to figure out what the right answer is. That it that everyone.
Speaker 1:That makes absolutely everyone happy is very hard at 100 yeah, you can't, I don't think you can. And um, yeah, I remember when I worked in london, we worked for quite a rich company. We used to have champagne every friday afternoon. I've gone on those days. We haven't even got a beer. Oh yeah, we have got a beer fridge, but, um, but yeah, I think you're right. I think it's just human nature for people, um, maybe to have something to say about management, or there's always something you can moan about, and I think if I think it's a good sign the fact that there is diversity in thinking and opinion.
Speaker 2:So the fact that it wasn't straightforward for you to implement um, you know, bonuses and so on I think is a good sign because it means it kind of signals diversity in thinking in the company, rather than having copycats of the same person cloned several times and so on, because then you kind of live in a bit of an echo chamber and when you're working with the variety of type, the variety of customers, like like you do, you do have to have diversity in your own team as well in order to be able to serve a diverse group of um customers, yeah, and in the, in the senior leadership team at work, um, there are such bright sparks and they've always come with really valuable insight or feedback, so for me, they've always got a voice around the table, even though I feel challenged sometimes, a lot of the time I need to hear what they're saying, because they're much closer to what's going on as well.
Speaker 2:It's normal to feel challenged. At the end of the day, we're humans, we're not machines, and I feel that our teams usually forget that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know it's like you're not an AI, you're not a robot. You, as a leader, have feelings as well, but it I feel that in a lot of the corporate environments is is it's um trained not to show feelings. And I understand why, right, because in a way, you have to be the role model and the person that's the the rock of everyone and give people confidence and so on. But in the same time, I think there's extremes to every single way of approaching things. The extreme to this is you just seem um soulless, right, like if you don't show any kind of emotion and you always treat everything with the most formal, formal and corporate tone and language, then you don't like, people don't relate to you and you just feel super cold. So there has to be um a balance. But that balance is hard, because you know showing emotions is is difficult at times, because you don't want to panic your team, you don't want people to feel unappreciated. You don't want them to feel like, oh, you don't appreciate their contribution or this or that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and I, I must say I get frustrated. I mean, you know, we grew very quickly and then we've had a tough couple of years. We introduced Salesforce into the business, as you know, expensive, so that project was over budget and over time, which crippled us.
Speaker 1:And then, you know, with Brexit and everything else and I haven't, you know, been able to reward people as much as I would ever want to and you know, been able to reward people as much as I would ever want to and you know, money's been tight and stuff and that's frustrating for me, but, yeah, we seem to have a. You know, if they listen to this, they go what are you talking about? But you know, a good culture in the business and I am approachable and you know, through, you know talking about that coach, we used being a vulnerable leader, if you like, and, yeah, just transparency and honesty and trying to have fun as well. Yeah, I forget sometimes how much I love fun, so it's hard.
Speaker 1:It's hard with a business business but trying to put that, that into the business sometimes and it's, you know, through covid we went online and we've got a small office in ho, but we've got a lot of people online, um, remotely and and just trying to, you know, even instill or maintain a culture online. But, yeah, we, we do have fun sometimes but, yeah, not enough.
Speaker 2:It does 100% happen. I do feel like towards the end of my company's journey, I become a bit of a grump with the team just because of the stress levels that I had with making sure that we're in a good, stable financial position, making sure that the acquisition goes through properly and so on. So you know, if there's one thing that I want to apologize to my team at Jigsaw is not being a bit more light-hearted and and fun, because I'm I can be like you know, I'm a goofy person sometimes. I'm fun, I like doing fun things. Just by saying that I sound like I'm not fun at all.
Speaker 2:I like doing fun things.
Speaker 1:I was going to say are you a fun thing? Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I was a bit intense. Now, the one thing that I wanted to say is but I was a bit intense. The first business you're starting, you manage to get it to a hundred people and and thrive with it. Go through a period of hardship where it sounds like it was and and now being at the other end. Is it at the under end yet, or is it?
Speaker 1:we're getting there we're getting there next year is going to be hopefully game-changing, but we've been holding our own in really challenging times. So, yeah, just holding our own. But now we're coming out of it. But a few months into next year we'll be in a lot better position.
Speaker 2:Because to me that is special. You don't see that that often Someone starting their first business, be it in their later years of their career, and being able to start it, grow it to a certain level and persist through um adverse conditions, what, what would you say, are the traits that got you here? What is it that you do well in order for this company to still exist 10 years later?
Speaker 1:but yeah, when you put it like that, it sounds a bit bonkers. When you live and breathe it, you don't really appreciate what you've done. I think tenacity is the biggest thing. Tenacity, yeah, and I think you talked about luck as well. Maybe it was luck, maybe it isn't, maybe it's you know when. When I started, there wasn't really anybody speaking to the e-commerce in a world about international VAT, and because I was on the client management side, it was all about making it as accessible as possible. It was all about making it as accessible as possible. So we just hit a perfect storm of Amazon growing and the tax authorities getting more wise to the online fraud, if you like. You know from e-commerce. So we were in the perfect storm. Tenacity, I think, is the only thing I can think of. I don't know. It's brutal, sometimes absolutely brutal, and I kind of lived in a state of stress for years. Um might quietly be in an adrenaline junkie.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Yeah, addicted to stress.
Speaker 1:Hopefully, not hopefully not my dream of not being stressed. Yeah, um, yeah, that's that's all I can say kind of determination and I think, and also the opportunity of it. It's such a to have a business with such a mental opportunity. It could be a, you know we have. You know we deal with clients in 50 countries. Um, we had an office in china, like all these things. You know, it's not missing the opportunity, I think, in life.
Speaker 2:So you're passionate about this topic.
Speaker 1:Are you yeah?
Speaker 2:Have you ever been passionate about the VAT topic?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I've been. No, not Well. I've been passionate about the VAT topic. Yeah, I think I've been. No, not Well. I've been passionate about helping people.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:It's really exciting when businesses you know I met a lady in her 70s in Kentucky in that first thing and you know she was like I can't believe I'm selling internationally. It was, you know, it was.
Speaker 2:It's very rewarding for you, as the service provider, to help others.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's the thing it is about trying to make people sleep at night and understanding they're an entrepreneur as well really trying to take the pain away.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's about helping people. I think the vat is is a vehicle. Vat is fascinating because where we work for the eu tax authorities, all the different countries and the cultures and the stereotypes that come into play like the germans, are really efficient. It's much more laid back like the mediterranean countries, they just take longer. They're mediterranean countries, they just take longer.
Speaker 1:They're not actually laid back, they just take longer to do things yeah um, so and and and for me, I'm quite my team will just roll their eyes, but I'm really passionate about the eu. To have 27 or 28 when we were in it countries trying to work together in the same direction, I think is phenomenal. Yeah, and I think that for me was always a joy, to be honest, to watch that big mass working its way through all these rules and regulations to try and look after the citizens. Yeah, fascinating.
Speaker 2:Well, we fudged it up, didn't we In the UK with?
Speaker 1:Honestly, a few really stupid people who got in positions of influence. It's absolutely criminal.
Speaker 2:You know what I was talking to someone, uh, the other day about this is, even in times where we're good, we're decent, we're okay as a society, there's always going to be that seed of problems, right, and that seed can, and those thoughts can, always be amplified now, especially nowadays with the internet. So here we are. Quite a few years later, that seed became tangible and became reality Brexit. We're now out of EU and I think in the next years things will get worse and worse, in such a way that we will go through another cycle. There's going to be change again because people realize, oh, we are in a bad.
Speaker 2:No one's going to talk about the fact that it's break brexit, like you said it's, it's going to always be something else, but change will need to happen and then we'll go through another cycle and then it depends if we land on a more positive or still down, down bad in terms of our positioning. But, um, yeah, I do think that we I I honestly feel that the pre-brexit was, in a way, the best period for uk. Um, I moved to this country because of what it kind of represented, as you know inclusive or technology, hub, this, that and we're getting a bit off track off rail where we currently are with the situation in UK. But anyways, I don't want to make this a politics.
Speaker 1:I think we were such a cool country I mean I was in London in the late 90s like cool Britannia and all that you know it was such a you know and, in the noughties, such a great place to be. And I think what's really ironic is all these people that have pushed to make you know to say Britain needs to stand on its own. It's all about sovereignty. They've absolutely, you know, undermined us as a, as a player on the global stage and they've just made us look so stupid and so small and idiotic and it's it goes against everything that they think they stand for.
Speaker 2:It's really ironic it's like the whole yeah, let's not even talk about the whole brexit back and forth and how silly everything looked at the global scale. Yeah, um, I have one important question before the closing ceremony, which is when we started discussing. You said that the reason, um, for which you started your own company was because you wanted you know, I'm going with this.
Speaker 2:It said that you. It was because you wanted you know I'm going with this. It was because you wanted longer lunch breaks and to be able to have your walks and not have your time extremely exaggerated by work. Is that? Do you have longer now, 10 years into your business business? Do you have longer lunch breaks and walks? You?
Speaker 1:don't. No, it's a no, I mean it. I think it took about seven years before I had lunch to start with it's. It's like being in a cage with a door open. It's absolutely bonkers. You work 10 12 hours a day Every day, might work weekends, I mean it's just relentless. I have the odd pocket of fun, but my employees do as well. But, yeah, I feel like I've got freedom, even though it's like everything I do sounds like a song. I do it for me. Yeah, do you know what I mean? But I've always worked hard when I've worked for other people as well.
Speaker 2:But no, it's the short answer to that now at least, you feel like you could take a longer lunch break, or yeah but you just don't want to.
Speaker 1:I know, like when I came away today, um, I was like, oh, I felt bad, like I was being naughty, coming out, you know, coming out of work for a couple of hours to do this, but, um, it's really good to come up for air. I think it was getting a bit intense. So, yeah, but no, I'm quite, yeah, quite a hard worker. So I don't. I know some ceos kind of swan around and stuff, but I like to lead by example.
Speaker 2:Do you, do you see a slowdown anytime in the future? Or are you thinking, no, God, no, I'm going to be working intensively and that's what I love.
Speaker 1:No, for me. I would love to get out in a couple of years. I mean absolutely love, if not before, um, not if not before, because you just need to get the position in a good, you know, in a better place, um, and then I'm so happy to kind of step down. Um, I think I'd probably like to still be involved, but I think just getting the position, the business in a good place, and then I'll, I'll really get out of the way for either kind of internal promotions or see if someone wants to buy the business. See, what happens.
Speaker 1:But no, I've got, I've got, I've just done this like two-year thing and then you'll have longer lunch breaks. Yeah, oh my god, I'll be so busy doing nothing. You'll have no idea. We'll love it that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Well, I usually um like to close off with uh three flash questions, first one being what's a quote that you live by?
Speaker 1:it's my quote. Uh, keep breathing keep breathing.
Speaker 2:That's awesome.
Speaker 1:I'm not even joking, it's like my motto do you have?
Speaker 2:so this? This seems um, quite um well fitted for yourself after what you told me. Um, but do you also have problems with forgetting to breathe when you talk too much? Because nikki has that, like she she gets when she talks a lot and she she's in the meeting she gets super red because she forgets to breathe.
Speaker 1:I think mine's my age. No, I think I hold the stress up here oh right, I forget to breathe no, I do have um.
Speaker 1:I do have a poem on my wall and I can't remember all of it, but it's um on my wall and I can't remember all of it, but it's um. Who's it by? And it's I am the master of my fate, I am the master of my soul. So that's the kind of quote. I, you know, a master of my own destiny, and I have to have to make it work. So yeah, I'll have to look that up, I'll send you it.
Speaker 2:It's a brilliant poem oh yeah, I'd love to read it um book that impacted your life yeah, um, there's a book, small island by um.
Speaker 1:Have you heard of it? Um? Yeah, I think so it's about yeah it's about the jamaicans coming to britain like during from the war onwards. It's a beautiful book but, yeah, really interesting about the Jamaicans fighting in the war and then, yeah, kind of experiencing racism and stuff when they tried to settle then in the UK. But yeah, yeah, that's always stuck in my mind, that book.
Speaker 2:Okay, good, and last question before we close off A good habit that you advocate for.
Speaker 1:Exercise Exercise yeah, I know I'm quite chubby, but I do a lot of boot camp and yoga Nice and I just love it.
Speaker 2:It's just yeah, yeah, highly recommend boot camp, um for people, yeah especially in jobs like ours, where you sit down and you just like on the computer yeah, and dancing as well.
Speaker 1:If I did go dancing, I like put my hands in the air to show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it feels like it's relief.
Speaker 1:You get some relief in your arms and the weight of it yeah, if I'm not dancing, you'll always see me with my hands up okay, then let's, let's, let's, let's take dancing.
Speaker 2:People should dance a bit more, and and just loosen up their limbs and yeah, that looks like there's no tomorrow.
Speaker 1:That's another motto dance like there's no tomorrow.
Speaker 2:I love it brilliant. Thank you so much. This was an amazing conversation. Again, you have a, really, and you just mentioned. I hope that this podcast also helped you realize what you've achieved so far and where you are, because, like you said, we can get bogged down in the details of our day-to-day world, world and so on, and you kind of forget the fact that this is my first business and I've been doing it for 10 years and I've had I have tens of employees and customers and so on. So really great achievements. I have something for you. I don't know if you're expecting this or not no, no, okay, it's good that you don't know about it.
Speaker 2:I'm still surprising people with this, but this is a coin as a thank you gift for being part of Misfit Founders. Oh wow, and it has the number 26, which is your guest number 26. Which is your guest number 26. You're the 26th Misfit founder that has agreed to share their story on the podcast.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:You make me emotional.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I really enjoyed it. I must admit I was a bit. I just felt like, yeah, I didn't know, worthy, not worthy.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's been great to chat with you it's a great conversation and the reason why I'm I'm giving oh and, by the way, you also get a quote to get some, if you like, merch and stuff um from my, from my store which I'm launching soon like founders merch store.
Speaker 2:The reason why I decided to do this is because not only that that you and the rest of the founders that come over put the effort of coming into my studio and chatting to me for an hour and a half and so on, but also this content will be distributed and will probably wind up inspiring and helping so many other founders that maybe, like yourself, been in the corporate and professional world for a long time and maybe they're not in their early 20s and they've been thinking about starting something, but it's been daunting, and so on. Or maybe they have their company started and they're at 100 people and some of these discussions can feel relatable and can help others. So this is one of the reasons why I give this coin as a gift, because I know how much value others can get from these podcasts. So thank you so much for your contribution no, that's great.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. And actually just one word of advice for people starting their own business get your processes right and your data right from the word. Go right, don't be scrambling around years later trying to put it all together very valid.
Speaker 2:I top tip for a second. I thought you're gonna say don't do it brilliant thank you so much.
Speaker 1:©. Transcript Emily.
Speaker 2:Beynon.
